DSMC2. Unified.

[emil_h]

I don‘t know where you live, but here in Switzerland this is the case. The higher the price of the car, the more and faster is the depreciation. Mercedes, Audi, BMW that cost 100K ish loose 25% value as soon as you drive out of the garage.
Smaller and cheaper cars in the 20K ish, 10-15%.

ADDING: This is why it is always wiser to wait a little bit and buy an almost new second hand car with very few kilometers. You save at least 20-25%. We call it the first and big depreciation in car chargon.
You can apply this to expensive camera gears too.

If you want to be at the edge of technology you always pay more.

My location is right under my name, just like yours lol, but at the EOD it's all contextual to the type of car, the price point etc. Here in the USA the typical depreciation on cars driven right off the lot are 10% but I wouldn't be surprised if more expensive luxury cars can drop by closer to 15-20%. https://www.carfax.com/blog/car-depreciation

 

[Thai Christen]

My location is right under my name, just like yours lol, but at the EOD it's all contextual to the type of car, the price point etc. Here in the USA the typical depreciation on cars driven right off the lot are 10% but I wouldn't be surprised if more expensive luxury cars can drop by closer to 15-20%. https://www.carfax.com/blog/car-depreciation

Sorry, I saw your location after I wrote my post. My fingers were faster than my brain, lol
Well if 10% is the case, then you are in a very good position. Maybe German luxury cars hold their value better in the USA than Europe because we have so many here that they are almost „standard“.

ADD: if you are in Zurich or Geneva, almost every second car is either a Porsche, Mercedes, BMW or Audi.

 

[emil_h]

Sorry, I saw your location after I wrote my post. My fingers were faster than my brain, lol
Well if 10% is the case, then you are in a very good position. Maybe German luxury cars hold their value better in the USA than Europe because we have so many here that they are almost „standard“.

Haha yeah everything from cabs to buses in many European countries are made by Benz. Definitely could be the case.

 

[Stefano Ceccon]

We accept that.. but a point many are forgetting that many have brought up is many are making an inaccurate comparison and only using one half the argument. " RED lowered pricing and Sony, Canon and ARRI would never do this to us! Damn you RED! "

When the reality is Arri has done this. They have dropped camera prices buy 40% overnight. Canon dropped their C300 in half. TWICE. Sony has done the same. Let's not forget the F23/F35 debacle.

There is such a big difference though. We actually give a shit. And unlike the above examples, we didn't lower prices because we have a new shiny toy. We lowered prices because I woke up one day and realized our cameras were more expensive than they should be. It strayed from the foundation of why we started this company.

We buckled down and made it work. We shrunk our team and unified our product and joined our camera business with one of the best supply chain companies in the world to help make things cheaper.

Sure.. we could of just shut the fuck up and increased our margins and quietly laughed all the way to the bank like everyone else does... but we didn't. We passed that on to our customers. Because that's why we are here. It's not about the money. And that's the irony, because that's why people are upset.

We have done this many times before. Every single one of you has taken advantage of our dedication to making the best cameras as affordable as possible so the most amount of people no matter how rich they are can have the best tools to make their art without compromise. Even those that bought cameras a week ago paid less than they would of. Because that's how it works. And even if you are not a RED customer... I think it's safe to say we made the rest of the industry change to your benefit.

Its also why we are dealing with you all one by one. Because we don't need to do anything. We really don't. Some of you get it , some of you don't. And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly.

So who has spent 60,000 euros + 22% VAT now has to compete with those who spend 25,000?
And if you want to have a top cinecamera have to spend another 39,000? therefore 93,000 euros + 22% VAT, fortunately you have moved away from your philosophy !!!!

I'm sorry but you ruined my market and my business

 

[Frank C. Wagner]

Jarred, I guess you woke up „one day“ (must be last week I guess) with some really bad cash flow records from HQ and decided to collect some money by selling upgrades. This was a panic reaction and not planned, because otherwise RED would not ship even Gemini without the new board... I'll take a screenshot before this got delete again

 

[Marco Eisenbarth]

So who has spent 60,000 euros + 22% VAT now has to compete with those who spend 25,000?
And if you want to have a top cinecamera have to spend another 39,000? therefore 93,000 euros + 22% VAT, fortunately you have moved away from your philosophy !!!!

I'm sorry but you ruined my market and my business

Stefano, I spent 80.000 + vat and yes I was also shocked when I read the news.
But let's be honest here for a second; we're getting killer deals all the time. This time
persons like you and I might be on the wrong end of the deal but RED has always taken care
of us and they will continue to do so. And quite honestly if a price drop of a camera you bought ruined your business - what I reject to believe - the problem might not be the pricing policy of RED but your business itself. It's not like they went into your bank account and took money from you. Your camera hasn't become more expensive all of a sudden, you spent the exact amount of money as before. And I can't talk for your clients but my clients will not pay less now. They don't really care for retail prices.

All I'm saying is: we'll be good. RED's always taken care of us. Let's all just relax and enjoy our cameras.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Jarred, I guess you woke up „one day“ (must be last week I guess) with some really bad cash flow records from HQ and decided to collect some money by selling upgrades. This was a panic reaction and not planned, because otherwise RED would not ship even Gemini without the new board... I'll take a screenshot before this got delete again

Hey Frank I understand you're upset, but lets have a little tact here. I'm not sure what your objective is.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, I guess you woke up „one day“ (must be last week I guess) with some really bad cash flow records from HQ and decided to collect some money by selling upgrades. This was a panic reaction and not planned, because otherwise RED would not ship even Gemini without the new board... I'll take a screenshot before this got delete again

If you have been following the Gemini thread where I have been talking about this for more than a month, where every week I have been talking about lowering the prices and apologizing that it was taking longer than it should because we needed to work on get it lower, then youll realize that your comment is not just wrong but offensive. . Sorry you were not paying attention to that thread.. It's not your responsibility to follow along but I suggest before you make reckless acusations like that you check your facts.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

"And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly"

Booya!

!! <3

 

[Frank C. Wagner]

If you have been following the Gemini thread where I have been talking about this for more than a month, where every week I have been talking about lowering the prices and apologizing that it was taking longer than it should because we needed to work on get it lower, then youll realize that your comment is not just wrong but offensive. . Sorry you were not paying attention to that thread.. It's not your responsibility to follow along but I suggest before you make reckless acusations like that you check your facts.

Not followed the thread that’s true, because I not expected a price drop for a fresh launched product. So you announced this a month ago??? But why it is so hard to get in contact with Gemini customers by a simple mail and to offer a solution Jarred? It would be so much easier for both of us than having this discussion here. I appreciate your direct communication, but I can not follow all your posts to get informed Jarred. Would love to have the time, but this is sadly not the case.

 

[Stefano Ceccon]

Stefano, I spent 80.000 + vat and yes I was also shocked when I read the news.
But let's be honest here for a second; we're getting killer deals all the time. This time
persons like you and I might be on the wrong end of the deal but RED has always taken care
of us and they will continue to do so. And quite honestly if a price drop of a camera you bought ruined your business - what I reject to believe - the problem might not be the pricing policy of RED but your business itself. It's not like they went into your bank account and took money from you. Your camera hasn't become more expensive all of a sudden, you spent the exact amount of money as before. And I can't talk for your clients but my clients will not pay less now. They don't really care for retail prices.

All I'm saying is: we'll be good. RED's always taken care of us. Let's all just relax and enjoy our cameras.

Now, who buys half the price of the ex weapon. Do jobs at half price compared to yesterday. Then, since the DSMC2 Helium is cheap, so many buy it or upgrade it. So it increases competition and decreases even more the price of the works.
So it is not possible for me to compete with this mass. I have a mortgage.
The only solution for me in Italy is to return to being the only private owner of a top RED range. But too expensive to do it.
I can not even sell it now. An individual does not amortize 60,000 + more accessories in two years.
So I will have a drastic decrease of work with my Red.

If you could put a Monstro on my White Red for 5,000 euros I would be happy and work well

 

[Marco Eisenbarth]

Now, who buys half the price of the ex weapon. Do jobs at half price compared to yesterday. Then, since the DSMC2 Helium is cheap, so many buy it or upgrade it. So it increases competition and decreases even more the price of the works.
So it is not possible for me to compete with this mass. I have a mortgage.
The only solution for me in Italy is to return to being the only private owner of a top RED range. But too expensive to do it.
I can not even sell it now. An individual does not amortize 60,000 in two years.
So I will have a drastic decrease of work with my Red.

Again I can't talk for you or your clients. But the clients I work for won't go like "ah there's a different guy with the same camera at a cheaper price, let's work with him from now on". They work with me because they are happy with the results they get. We've set up conditions and we stick to them. Wether my camera has a 80.000 euros retail price or 55.000 euros. I'm a single person also. Financing this thing over 4 years which means by the time a paid for it DSMC3 might already be a thing. It certainly will. At point x I've made a decision to make an investment. There is no guarantee that prices will stay the same. Prices drop, that's how it has always been. Yes it was a drastic price drop, but does it help anyone running in circles, both middlefingers up in the air screaming 'f*ck jarred, f*ck RED' (not that you do that but others do)? No it doesn't. You'll be fine Stefano, you'll keep making money. You've got a damn nice camera and you got to the point of being able to buy it because obviously you're good at what you do. That's why this won't be the end of you.

 

[Jarred Land]

Not followed the thread that’s true, because I not expected a price drop for a fresh launched product. So you announced this a month ago??? But why it is so hard to get in contact with Gemini customers by a simple mail and to offer a solution Jarred? It would be so much easier for both of us than having this discussion here. I appreciate your direct communication, but I can not follow all your posts to get informed Jarred. Would love to have the time, but this is sadly not the case.

Yes.. as I said, it's not your responsibility to follow every post. I assume you actually have work to do. I just pointed it out because you accused me of making this up all up last week and that is just not correct.. it's pretty unfair. I have been drilling my team on this for months and I entered the discussion with users right here on this forum for over a monthg before I did anything. Something no other company does.

It's not our responsiblity to refund everyone that made a purchase in the past because something new came out or our prices changed. Every company that makes any technical product releases new products and they change pricing... thats the foundation of product evolution. If a new product isn't better than the last or the same features for a lower price then there is no reason to release a new product. Many people here already pointed to every other camera company that matters for doing the same thing. And for the most part none of those companies looked back. But we are looking back.. and we are trying to help our customers with past purchases, even if the given rule in this industry and most others is not to.

 

[Brad Grimm]

Prices drop, that's how it has always been. Yes it was a drastic price drop, but does it help anyone running in circles, both middlefingers up in the air screaming 'f*ck jarred, f*ck RED' (not that you do that but others do)? No it doesn't. You'll be fine Stefano, you'll keep making money. You've got a damn nice camera and you got to the point of being able to buy it because obviously you're good at what you do. That's why this won't be the end of you.

These things happen all the time around here.. RED makes a splash, people cheer, people get angry.. and then life goes on, and cameras keep a rolling. The difference now is that RED actually has the Alexia killer, The Monstro creates the best digital image, ever, And its in reach for many more people. Lets all enjoy the weekend and then get back to making art.

 

[Stefano Ceccon]

Again I can't talk for you or your clients. But the clients I work for won't go like "ah there's a different guy with the same camera at a cheaper price, let's work with him from now on". They work with me because they are happy with the results they get. We've set up conditions and we stick to them. Wether my camera has a 80.000 euros retail price or 55.000 euros. I'm a single person also. Financing this thing over 4 years which means by the time a paid for it DSMC3 might already be a thing. It certainly will. At point x I've made a decision to make an investment. There is no guarantee that prices will stay the same. Prices drop, that's how it has always been. Yes it was a drastic price drop, but does it help anyone running in circles, both middlefingers up in the air screaming 'f*ck jarred, f*ck RED' (not that you do that but others do)? No it doesn't. You'll be fine Stefano, you'll keep making money. You've got a damn nice camera and you got to the point of being able to buy it because obviously you're good at what you do. That's why this won't be the end of you.

This is what happens in Italy!!!! a lot of crisis here, and agencies choose the lowest price, or the best quality to sell to their customers with a top camera with DP owner (pay less rent RED and look for a DP)

 

[Frank C. Wagner]

Yes.. as I said, it's not your responsibility to follow every post. I assume you actually have work to do. I just pointed it out because you accused me of making this up all up last week and that is just not correct.. it's pretty unfair. I have been drilling my team on this for months and I entered the discussion with users right here on this forum for over a monthg before I did anything. Something no other company does.

It's not our responsiblity to refund everyone that made a purchase in the past because something new came out or our prices changed. Every company that makes any technical product releases new products and they change pricing... thats the foundation of product evolution. If a new product isn't better than the last or the same features for a lower price then there is no reason to release a new product. Many people here already pointed to every other camera company that matters for doing the same thing. And for the most part none of those companies looked back. But we are looking back.. and we are trying to help our customers with past purchases, even if the given rule in this industry and most others is not to.

Ok Jarred, but seriously... a price drop of 5K/20% for a fresh launched product is not fair at all, isn’t it? I ordered RED products blind sometimes, but you have to understand that there are a lot of people out there who will think twice before they do it again. When I invest in this price range I expect that the company takes care that this price is stable for a minimum of six month. It is RED Jannard, so don’t behave like DJI please. And to offer no solution and not inform those early adaptors by eMail for example is nothing what will increase trust in the brand I guess... but that’s exactly what made RED a strong brand! Blind trust like my Hydrogen order four minutes after launch. I'm just really disappointed this time...

 

[Stefano Ceccon]

These things happen all the time around here.. RED makes a splash, people cheer, people get angry.. and then life goes on, and cameras keep a rolling. The difference now is that RED actually has the Alexia killer, The Monstro creates the best digital image, ever, And its in reach for many more people. Lets all enjoy the weekend and then get back to making art.

Here it is NOT angry for the lower prices, happy with this. Red has always done!
The argument is that they do not help those who invested in Weapon Monstro, update too too expensive.

Epic-w 30.000 upgrade to DSMC2 Helium (ex Weapon 50.000) only 5.000
Weapon 60.000 upgrade Monstro 54.000 "only" 39.000. For me it is not right.
This makes me very angry. Do not help private individuals who believe in the high-range Red

 

[Zeb B]

We accept that.. but a point many are forgetting that many have brought up is many are making an inaccurate comparison and only using one half the argument. " RED lowered pricing and Sony, Canon and ARRI would never do this to us! Damn you RED! "

When the reality is Arri has done this. They have dropped camera prices buy 40% overnight. Canon dropped their C300 in half. TWICE. Sony has done the same. Let's not forget the F23/F35 debacle.

There is such a big difference though. We actually give a shit. And unlike the above examples, we didn't lower prices because we have a new shiny toy. We lowered prices because I woke up one day and realized our cameras were more expensive than they should be. It strayed from the foundation of why we started this company.

We buckled down and made it work. We shrunk our team and unified our product and joined our camera business with one of the best supply chain companies in the world to help make things cheaper.

Sure.. we could of just shut the fuck up and increased our margins and quietly laughed all the way to the bank like everyone else does... but we didn't. We passed that on to our customers. Because that's why we are here. It's not about the money. And that's the irony, because that's why people are upset.

We have done this many times before. Every single one of you has taken advantage of our dedication to making the best cameras as affordable as possible so the most amount of people no matter how rich they are can have the best tools to make their art without compromise. Even those that bought cameras a week ago paid less than they would of. Because that's how it works. And even if you are not a RED customer... I think it's safe to say we made the rest of the industry change to your benefit.

Its also why we are dealing with you all one by one. Because we don't need to do anything. We really don't. Some of you get it , some of you don't. And we will reward the level of compassion accordingly.

As someone who has owned a manufacturing company in an intensely competitive environment, I understand what you are saying and doing. Making complex electronic gear is one hella hard way to make money. Those here who have tried get that. Those who have been Passengers not the Pilot wont get it. Anyone who is surprised that the cost of electronic gear is relentlessly driven down does not have a basic understanding of economics. This fact is so 1980’s Dell Computer . . . I mean pick up a book and read ;-)

 

[Matt Beardsley]

I'm stoked to get to work on Gemini! I just ordered an EF mount for it... the standard DSMC1 is still OK on the slightly bigger sensor? No need to order the VV variant of the EF mount? I'm guessing the new brain works with all the same accessories my Scarlet-W and Raven are using now.

Also, not trying to go totally off thread and talk about the camera.. ha ha.. I, for one, was surprised and excited to see the price point for DSMC2 / Gemini. I had been planning to upgrade to Epic and the relatively low price point made it possible – and that for a Weapon body that could some day take a full frame sensor? Yes please! Totally unexpected. Thanks team Red!

 

[Matthew Quinn]

I'm stoked to get to work on Gemini! I just ordered an EF mount for it... the standard DSMC1 is still OK on the slightly bigger sensor? No need to order the VV variant of the EF mount? I'm guessing the new brain works with all the same accessories my Scarlet-W and Raven are using now.

Also, not trying to go totally off thread and talk about the camera.. ha ha.. I, for one, was surprised and excited to see the price point for DSMC2 / Gemini. I had been planning to upgrade to Epic and the relatively low price point made it possible – and that for a Weapon body that could some day take a full frame sensor? Yes please! Totally unexpected. Thanks team Red!

Your exsisting lens mount/expander should work fine