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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DSMC2. Unified.

Brent@RED said:
Aside from the fact you can upgrade to WEAPON-class board sets at no additional cost. Which opens up the ability to go into above-S35 sized sensors like MONSTRO, which was not possible before without upgrading to WEAPON.
Click to expand...

so whats the difference in specs? I just got a gemini and I am not seeing a spec difference, but I could be on wrong page

steve
 
This was unexpected but makes sense.

Wasn't planning on it but Epic-W to weapon inside is very attractive and does make sense. Not being directly familiar with a weapon can i ask:

Beyond the increased data rate and frame rates what else is different. For example does the camera UI run faster? I've often found the EW quite slow at basic operations and so a bit more processing might help that UI.

I presume sensor read out time is the same though or is that a bit faster (reduced rolling shutter which can be borderline at time on the Epic-W)

Is the onboard audio identical? Board swap might mean different audio?

And finally, it's time limited, but is there any indication yet what this might be. I don't have time at the moment to swap...

thanks everyone, and thanks Jarred & Brent for this

cheers
Paul
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
I've learned from being a RED owner over the years and hope I can lend some advice for those that are like me.

1. Jump on the good deals when you see something that works for you. For example, I couldn't afford an Epic MX, yet they cut the price in half and I could jump in. If you can't swing it don't do it.
2. Honestly don't upgrade if you can't afford it. Really look at the value of what you have. The upgrades are awesome but if you can't afford it, it turns into a rabbit hole you will constantly be digging to keep up with.
3. The top tier doesn't make sense unless you can really afford it and you have the work for it. Just don't do it if you're going to be hemorrhaging money and opening loans.
4. Get the low end gear and be able to afford using it. Get a Raven, its really all I need and most of us need. Then you have all the accessories for the big projects when they come along and all you need to do is rent the body.
5. Seriously just sit back and watch. Upgrading and trying to keep up is an endless money stream that only makes sense for a few. Just look at the frustration from those trying to keep up.

They're great cameras but RED moves as fast or faster than other companies. Wait for it to be a fit for you.
Click to expand...

Much of this is true. This isn't the first time RED has slashed the price of their expensive camera. But I do want to point out that continually being told that you're going to be "left behind" if you don't upgrade creates a strong psychological incentive to keep investing money in the system. Sure, you don't have to do it, but it's designed to make you feel like you have to. Even though we see now that some guys who paid to upgrade from Epic Dragons to Epic-Ws in the "last call" (DSMC2 is the future, if you're not in a DSMC2 body, you're SOL!) now have the option to upgrade to Gemini for $12,500. Awesome for the guys who didn't upgrade yet, might be leaving the guys who upgrade to 8K (when they didn't need/want more than 6K, but didn't want to be left behind) with a bad taste in their mouth.

Ultimately, the trend I seem to see is that the deals are always the best when you're either 1. not a RED owner yet (i.e. I got a $10k discount on Epic-W for pre-order delays on the Scarlet-W. Or if you aren't a Helium owner yet you just saved $25k) or you're on a lower end body and there is room to move up. It's a constant up-sell game. Honestly, even my buying the Epic-W was weighing the investment vs. the value (rental rates, retail value for resell, etc) and I know for a fact I'm not alone, because I know a ton of people who jumped up from Scarlet-W to Epic-W because of the discount and it resulted in some pretty low rental rates and lower resale value... but now all of those Epic-W's are worth somewhere in between a used Scarlet-W and new $25k Helium. A lower resale value creates a stronger incentive for us to pay the $5k upgrade to either Gemini or Helium.

Mostly, I feel bad for the dudes with Heliums that just had their camera values nerfed.
 
Jarred,

This is great news. A much-needed streamlining and pruning of the many branches. Very nice and tidy now. And thanks to Brent for his guiding hand. ;-)
 
Damn. $25,000.00 for essentially the 8k Weapon Helium is a fantastic price. I wish we hadn't paid double that less than a year ago. That's the price of living on the bleeding edge I suppose.

I could live with and understand that concept. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is that I feel like we were told that being at the top tier meant we were in the sweet spot for upgrades. From everything I saw on the boards here, to conversations with people at RED, if you wanted to get into the Monstro sensor, 8K Weapon Helium was the place to be.

We missed the boat on the $10,000.00 upgrade to Monstro, that's fine we weren't ready at the time. We were disappointed by the $30,000.00 upgrade price, which made it unlikely we'd be pulling the trigger anytime soon. Now our camera's value has been cut in half, and our upgrade path to Monstro is now $40,000.00.

I'm happy for you guys that aren't our boat right now! This is a great deal for people just now acquiring a RED or coming from the Epic-W even. Jarred mentioned he was putting something together for people like us, I hope that works out!

We've loved our RED cameras. We started on the Scarlet-MX, shot the crap out of that. Upgraded to the Epic-MX, which was an absolute workhorse (we still have it). We bought a brand new Helium 8K Weapon at full price and that camera has created stunning imagery. I've espoused the virtue of these cameras for a long time. This is the first time I've felt like I've been left out in the cold.

Bummer.
 
Josh Becker said:
Much of this is true. This isn't the first time RED has slashed the price of their expensive camera. But I do want to point out that continually being told that you're going to be "left behind" if you don't upgrade creates a strong psychological incentive to keep investing money in the system. Sure, you don't have to do it, but it's designed to make you feel like you have to. Even though we see now that some guys who paid to upgrade from Epic Dragons to Epic-Ws in the "last call" (DSMC2 is the future, if you're not in a DSMC2 body, you're SOL!) now have the option to upgrade to Gemini for $12,500. Awesome for the guys who didn't upgrade yet, might be leaving the guys who upgrade to 8K (when they didn't need/want more than 6K, but didn't want to be left behind) with a bad taste in their mouth.

Ultimately, the trend I seem to see is that the deals are always the best when you're either 1. not a RED owner yet (i.e. I got a $10k discount on Epic-W for pre-order delays on the Scarlet-W. Or if you aren't a Helium owner yet you just saved $25k) or you're on a lower end body and there is room to move up. It's a constant up-sell game. Honestly, even my buying the Epic-W was weighing the investment vs. the value (rental rates, retail value for resell, etc) and I know for a fact I'm not alone, because I know a ton of people who jumped up from Scarlet-W to Epic-W because of the discount and it resulted in some pretty low rental rates and lower resale value... but now all of those Epic-W's are worth somewhere in between a used Scarlet-W and new $25k Helium. A lower resale value creates a stronger incentive for us to pay the $5k upgrade to either Gemini or Helium.

Mostly, I feel bad for the dudes with Heliums that just had their camera values nerfed.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Red is an expensive brand to own at the end. Many people bought Red cameras because they were not able to buy Arri but they would have lost less money by buying Arri since the start as the resale value is so good. I entered the ecosystem with the scarlet MX, upgraded to Dragon, but realized with the upcoming Scarlet-W that it would never end and that I would spend way more than I intended to. I totally agree with the «*psychological incentive*» you’re talking about. I sold my S-D, bought the Vari LT for a good price during the U.K. brexit and feel way more peaceful now with a camera which still shows the same price 2 years later and didn’t get 2 upgrades in the meantime. Red cameras are great but they are a terrible investment if you don’t make enough money in a short time. I think people are wrong when they say that’s the same with any brand. I’ve been on Reduser for many years and it’s sad seeing guys spending money they don’t have in a system they don’t really need, making home footage, upgrading over and over or selling almost new cameras for nothing. It’s wrong for them but also for the resale market which is overstaturated with all these different Red cameras.
 
Steve DiMaggio said:
so whats the difference in specs? I just got a gemini and I am not seeing a spec difference, but I could be on wrong page

steve
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one Steve.

It would be nice to see a gemini with 180 fps in 4K DCI with this body. It may come as this DSMC2 body has more horsepower than an Epic-W body.
 
Some focus on prices and devaluation, others realize value. Red Ones still make beautiful pictures as they did originally. Every subsequent camera Red has offered has been an improvement. Red's motto "we make obsolescence obsolete" is a major guiding force behind Red's business model, and as far as I can tell they are doing the walk and not just the talk. They offer upgrade paths to Red owners as technology changes. Who else does that in this business? I suspect that many of the "disappointed ones" would not own such a wonderful tool today if it were not for Red's business model that brought them an affordable cinema camera in the first place.
 
Blair Thornton said:
I'm with you on this one Steve.

It would be nice to see a gemini with 180 fps in 4K DCI with this body. It may come as this DSMC2 body has more horsepower than an Epic-W body.
Click to expand...

Spec difference will probably be in lower compression, especially in slowmo - but not in highspeed.

Also the unified boards will probably improve firmware performance (I think this may quietely be a bigger deal than some folks realize - wouldn't surprise me if all the DSMC2-U brains are noticeably more responsive, streamlined and easier to patch than their current brethren).

Almost 100% gauranteed we won't see any improvements in highspeed as DSMC2/DSMC1 are designed w/ certain caps per resolution:

8K/6K: 60fps
5K: 96fps
4K: 120fps

Better boards won't change that (notice VV has those same caps/limits).

But lower compression is certainly a possibility, which when shooting slowmo (say 8:1 vs 10:1) is nothing to sneeze at.
 
my theory is the higher end 8k ones might upgrade to tbe VR/3d rig prototype unit shown on may 19th... cuz it was said its two 4k images in the beam splitter? i wasnt at the event but harassed the hell out of anyone on FB at the event at the time for any tidbits I could scope..

im not sure what to do with the Epic ws... i hope its a long window cuz those are always nice to think things over. i also need to work on my reading skills lol... i misread it all like ten times at least..

my other theory is the foxconn partnership and the FB partnership can be working towards not just hydrogens R&D or costs but also on this end? and gemini sold crazy well for a random unit made for Elon...it was a huge cash cow i suspect too. cuz its like back in the day when better film stock came out with higher ISOs...everyone must get it, and yes it isnt stock but the reality is monstro and gemini are low light beasts vs the arris i have...
 
As a current Epic-W owner if I move to the new DSMC2 Gemini instead of DSMC2 Helium will this be a longer path to Monstro?

Monstro is our end goal and we're trying to eliminate as many detours as possible, if possible. And at this time Epic-W cannot go straight to Monstro with the information I've gathered.

Thanks.
 
Andrew Bydlon said:
As a current Epic-W owner if I move to the new DSMC2 Gemini instead of DSMC2 Helium will this be a longer path to Monstro?

Monstro is our end goal and we're trying to eliminate as many detours as possible, if possible. And at this time Epic-W cannot go straight to Monstro with the information I've gathered.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You just need to be in a DSCM2 body. The Epic-W (and Scarlet-W and Weapon MG) all have boards that aren't capable of handling Monstro. So, either route you go, you should be all set in terms of internal boards being ready for the Monstro sensor, or any other sensor you want to throw in there!
 
sam karr said:
I totally agree. Red is an expensive brand to own at the end. Many people bought Red cameras because they were not able to buy Arri but they would have lost less money by buying Arri since the start as the resale value is so good....

...Red cameras are great but they are a terrible investment if you don’t make enough money in a short time. I think people are wrong when they say that’s the same with any brand. I’ve been on Reduser for many years and it’s sad seeing guys spending money they don’t have in a system they don’t really need, making home footage, upgrading over and over or selling almost new cameras for nothing. It’s wrong for them but also for the resale market which is overstaturated with all these different Red cameras.
Click to expand...
Very true.

RED is a very smart company with a huge fanbase and many loyal customers. You start into the RED ecosystem (small or big) and keep investing, upgrading and investing etc. At the end, you probably end up paying more than you would have bought an Arri Mini which still holds its value great.
I mentioned in many other threads, if you cannot make ROI within 2 years, don‘t buy.
 
Last edited:
Nick Morrison said:
Spec difference will probably be in lower compression, especially in slowmo - but not in highspeed.

Also the unified boards will probably improve firmware performance (I think this may quietely be a bigger deal than some folks realize - wouldn't surprise me if all the DSMC2-U brains are noticeably more responsive, streamlined and easier to patch than their current brethren).

Almost 100% gauranteed we won't see any improvements in highspeed as DSMC2/DSMC1 are designed w/ certain caps per resolution:

8K/6K: 60fps
5K: 96fps
4K: 120fps

Better boards won't change that (notice VV has those same caps/limits).

But lower compression is certainly a possibility, which when shooting slowmo (say 8:1 vs 10:1) is nothing to sneeze at.
Click to expand...

I would love cleaner low speed, I just cant do the down time right now

steve
 
BrendanLeahy said:
You just need to be in a DSCM2 body. The Epic-W (and Scarlet-W and Weapon MG) all have boards that aren't capable of handling Monstro. So, either route you go, you should be all set in terms of internal boards being ready for the Monstro sensor, or any other sensor you want to throw in there!
Click to expand...

The DSMC2 Helium is 5K more than the DSMC2 Gemini. It's going to cost 5K to move to the DSMC2 unified body. If we move to the Helium DSMC2 is that considered a step above the Gemini DSMC2 making it an easier (possibly less expensive) move to Monstro?
 
Does anyone know how long the Scarlet-W trade in will be available until?
 
they dont usually announce the cut off dates right when the upgrade deals start. monstro upgrades were still going on until may 1st for us prepaid guys so that was litterally years long. this deal is probably gonna last for a bit but not forever
 
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