Dsmc..

[Jun-Dai]

I agree, and I think the concept of a single handheld professional imaging device is inevitable, but I worry about the implications for the photographer/artist. But there is no doubt in my mind that even more of the creativity of the artist will shift from the camera to the computer. And sometimes to the editor/art director. We will be required to spend vastly greater amount of time just finding these moments (I'm already doing it with the 9fps of the D3). This is neither good nor bad but does add complexity to the job, possibly at the cost of creative control. It will require those of us who have to use the tools to learn when the DSMC should be used in single shot or SAW mode.

So I was thinking about that. What if there was a feature allowing you to capture up to 30 seconds of footage into a buffer, and then scroll quickly through the buffer selecting the photos you wanted to save? This would obviously be a bit limiting if this was the only way the camera worked, but as a feature I can think of many places where this would be useful: all the benefits of being able to capture the right moment, but without the hassle of sorting through all the photos later and deleting most of them.

Or with a similar level of effort on the user's part, it seems like an obvious feature to allow you to look through the clips on your computer later with a program specifically designed for making it easy to select the RAW (or auto-processed JPGs if you prefer) stills you want out of the footage.

 

[BobSimon]

hehe... Bob. You are too funny. You are comparing Scarlet (a motion camera that shoots 3K) to a DSLR that shoots stills. Two different animals. Why not compare Scarlet to a Varicam or HDCAM and the Canon to the Nikon or Sony? BTW, have you actually held a Scarlet?

No one has seen our DSMC. When we post it, you can compare it to whatever you want... even though nothing will compare in performance.
Jim

I meant to say, if the DSMC look like that picture, I will not buy it. Because it is too bulky for a DSLR. I am used to the body of nikons and Canons. I think they are very ergonomic. They fit in my plam very well. That is what I meant.

I am in the waiting list for both D90 and 5D Mark II.
I am not fanatic about any brand. If DSMC is small like the D90 and has better features, I will buy DSMC too.
Sony DSLRs are bulkier than Canons in my opinion.
(Next, I would like to look at the new 3/4 form factor cameras.)

 

[Peter Majtan]

Bob, unless You have never owned a DSLR and are buying complete package of body with lenses (in which case it contradicts Your "being used to") - I know of very few people who would use professionally both brands. This is simply due to the fact that it is not the body (that every professional ends up changing every couple of years or so), but the lenses that You have invested in, that determine Your brand preference. I am a long fan, user and developer of Canon gear. I have nothing against Nikon and I am sure it is as good as Canon - any preference between the two is personal and in my experience based on one's investment into the respective glass...

I just don't understand how can You be in a wait-list for both the Nikon and the Canon and "decide" to buy which ever "comes first", no offense...

Having tested the 50D for about a month now and am actually deciding between the 50D and 5Dm2, the 50D is that good...

DSMC (when it comes out) will hopefully address our investment in glass, and if it does - I am sold. This would make the 50D or the 5Dm2 the last DSLR I will buy...

Again - I mean no offense, I just don't understand how can You be wait-listed for both the Nikon and the Canon, unless You are buying Your first package with lenses, which would contradict Your other statements...

I don't see Scarlet being any "bulkier" then my current DSLR's, at least not in any significant way. It looks really ergonomic to me. But maybe this could be attributed to my 6'4" hight (meaning I have a large hands...)

Peace... :red_bandana:

 

[David Rasberry]

Hopefully it will withstand being dropped without killing it. My wife dropped her Nikon D40 once and it was toast.

 

[BobSimon]

I just don't understand how can You be in a wait-list for both the Nikon and the Canon and "decide" to buy which ever "comes first", no offense...:

My interest in D90 and Canon MKII is the video feature. Either one would be enough, for limited video use. Both are good for basic still photography. These are the perfect dual purpose cameras, to date.

Hopefully DSMC would be more compact with better features and cheaper.

 

[Kellan O'Connor]

Jim,
Will this be more a tool for the cinematographer in me, or the photographer? Both are excited, and both are ready for whatever you've got, but are both going to be satisfied?
thanks
kellan
(first post)

 

[Jason Ing]

if you're a photographer relying on luck, you're not a photographer.

Carl, I get what you're saying. I guess you're really leaning on the word "relying". I guess if that's the only thing that creates a picture, then like anyone who went to Las Vegas will tell you, your luck will run out and so you probably couldn't make a profession out of photography.

But I do consider serendipity, happy happenstance, the fortuitous moment, as "part" of the creative process.

But preferring or wanting the option of having a series of images to choose from isn't an indication of lack of ability or craftsmanship, etc. It also could mean that the photographer has a discerning eye and subtle, discriminating tastes and wants to select only the best among the very best. For instance, when I setup a shot with a model/actress, I'll direct them like a scene, knowing that there will be a moment (not a split second), but still, a relatively brief moment in time that everything will come together and I'll need to press the shutter.

Have I got that "shot" with just one press? Yes. When you're a college student and could only afford ONE roll of film... LOL... you get very good at timing it right to make sure that one of those 36 shots is gold. I considered it a good shoot if I got 2-3 winners out of a roll. One was enough. But when I could afford more film, and I could actually go from single shot to high speed, I got more "winners".

I don't know if you ever tried shooting a series of images, but looking from milli-second frame by milli-second frame, there really is a huge difference if your tastes are discriminating (I don't mean that to be a knock on you... okay... maybe just a little upside your head playing... heh-heh.). So in those few seconds that I "choose" to hit the button, there will be a series of great shots... but one of them will be "fantastic" and more of a winner then the other winners. The flying hair will be just right, the furrowed brow just so, and the eyes... perfect.

Maybe the DSMC will change you.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[twelve17]

I'll argue that the soul of non-staged (event, sports) photography is the ability to be one with situation, and I believe, not to have to rely on grabbing a frame from a stream of photographs. I'm not suggesting that you take one picture and go home.

These two sentences seem contradictory to me. You are arguing that the photographer not rely on a stream of photos, which to me implies that they instead rely on their "talent" to foresee the "right" time, yet you also deny suggesting that they take one picture and go home, which to me implies that they need to make multiple attempts to get the "right" frame. So does the photographer have this "talent" or not? Where does the threshold live, where one is applying the romanticized act of "knowing" about this magic moment, and not?

Here's my point...while the omni-inclusion approach has it's role, if you are relying on your stream of stills to capture your best photograph, then yes, I think there something less "legitimate" about the still, or maybe, it's just less romantic. To be more precise...of course you're going to capture that most excellent still when you're capturing everything.

I think that this argument is too narrow. If you, as a photographer, are using the metric of time as the only basis to get the right shot, then you are not thinking about composition, lighting, etc; you are not anticipating movements or reading body language.

In my opinion, a photographer's goal to get the "right" shot at the "right" moment involves being able to anticipate it, placing the camera at the appropriate angle, composing the shot, focus where desired, and then press the shutter. The stream approach only eliminates the last step. The ability to properly perform the previous steps will be the what that separate shots that catch the moment and those that do not, scenarios of dumb luck excluded.

I will concede that it's much less romantic to see a great sporting shot on a newspaper if it wasn't due to the split second intersection of when it happened and when the photographer pressed the shutter button. But this notion has been deteriorating for a while now because that limitation has been disappearing.

You can think of it as "less people will get the right shot by shooting at the right time", or "maybe we'll see many more 'right' shots that would have been missed by the 'single shutter action' approach".

 

[Peter Majtan]

My interest in D90 and Canon MKII is the video feature. Either one would be enough, for limited video use. Both are good for basic still photography. These are the perfect dual purpose cameras, to date.

Hopefully DSMC would be more compact with better features and cheaper.

Bob, this is exactly the kind of misunderstanding Jim was warning about - that some people might actually buy it for the video features as main reason. You are in for a nasty surprise...

Also calling D90 & the MKII "good for basic still photography" must be the understatement of the year...

In the end You have missed my point. Whether it is video or still features that lures You - You will need glass... From Your post I have assumed that You are seasoned DSLR user/owner and therefore have already nice set of glass - in which case I was puzzled why would You go wait-listed for two competing brands...

 

[twelve17]

It seems very interesting to me that every shot is a lock-down shot. The camera is not moving in any sample footage.

Jim

I thought the same thing too. As Canon, here you have a camera that now shoots1080p video, and, given the many types of scenes you could shoot to show it off, you decide to...set it on a tripod and let it sit there, for every demo clip?

Given the skew factor, now it makes sense.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Jim, I have said this before and I will say it again:

What I am trying to say is that there is also a huge market for 2K delivery (currently addressed by You with Scarlet). What will be nice is to see Mysterium X and/or Monstro in S35/F35 size with "only" 3K-RAW resolution destined for pristine 2K deliveries. That particular niche between Scarlet & Red One... Camera that is not "pocket", offers interchangeable lens mounts and priced under $10K. Not only this is doable, but very much desirable...

Just my two pesos...

Peter

What if Scarlet and DSMC were the same and ''this camera'' was a Full 35mm size with interchangeable lens and 3k movie mode under $10k!:weight_lift:

 

[P Andersson]

30 megapixel still and 3K movie for $3k... soon enough

 

[BobSimon]

Bob, this is exactly the kind of misunderstanding Jim was warning about - that some people might actually buy it for the video features as main reason. ...

There are hundreds on the waiting list ahead of me. They are all lured by the HD video feature. Inspite of all its limitations, have you ever seen a video device that small that can use a 35 mm lens and record onto a SD card?

Have you ever dreamed of pitching your bulky video and still gear at home and whistling through airport checkpoints with a tiny DSLR hanging from your wrist, going on a vacation?

According to my local camera dealer, more such cameras are coming before Christmas. Apparently, the big cahuna will be the 28MP sony, with FF sensor and no Jello effect. If his prediction become a reality before I take possession of D90/MKII, and if the sony has a compact formfactor, I might consider the big cahuna.

Oh, one more thing, if I can trust the camera dealer, the jello effect in D90 will be remedied in their future production run.

 

[Justin A. Lincoln]

But I do consider serendipity, happy happenstance, the fortuitous moment, as "part" of the creative process.

Can't deny that. The happy accident often produces a wonderful result. Doesn’t having a stream of pictures, in a way, remove the "happy accident" by the nature of the process, don’t you think and that makes me a little sad. (poor ol’ carlspackler). Now, to contradict myself, the stream approach has the potential for limitless “happy accidents” and where's the joy in that?

But preferring or wanting the option of having a series of images to choose from isn't an indication of lack of ability or craftsmanship, etc. It also could mean that the photographer has a discerning eye and subtle, discriminating tastes and wants to select only the best among the very best. For instance, when I setup a shot with a model/actress, I'll direct them like a scene, knowing that there will be a moment (not a split second), but still, a relatively brief moment in time that everything will come together and I'll need to press the shutter.

Have I got that "shot" with just one press? Yes. When you're a college student and could only afford ONE roll of film... LOL... you get very good at timing it right to make sure that one of those 36 shots is gold. I considered it a good shoot if I got 2-3 winners out of a roll. One was enough. But when I could afford more film, and I could actually go from single shot to high speed, I got more "winners".

I don't know if you ever tried shooting a series of images, but looking from milli-second frame by milli-second frame, there really is a huge difference if your tastes are discriminating (I don't mean that to be a knock on you... okay... maybe just a little upside your head playing... heh-heh.). So in those few seconds that I "choose" to hit the button, there will be a series of great shots... but one of them will be "fantastic" and more of a winner then the other winners. The flying hair will be just right, the furrowed brow just so, and the eyes... perfect.

Then is sounds like RED's DSMC may be rather ideal for you.

Maybe the DSMC will change you.

I won't hold it against you if it does

------

I’m not trying to say anyone who wants to shoot a stream and pull the winner is not a real photographer. That would discount those who perhaps have a greater talent at post-production over production. Personally, I just think there's something to be said for getting it right, or as close to right as possible, the first time with your gut and your instinct and your talent. And to me, this is impressive and garners my adoration.

Now I fully understand that just about any form of photography requires "post production", it’s part of the process. I just think, in my own personal opinion, that you're losing something if you gear your workflow toward post production. But hey, maybe one person likes to gather as much as they can and pick from there. I, however, relish capturing those discrete moments in time. For me, it leaves a story on both sides of the image. We may never know what came just before and just after that fraction of a second. Clearly, you can tell my interest does not like in commercial photography. In my humble opinion, there's less magic and you start down a slippery slope, if you are putting more emphasis on post-production, but hey, maybe we’re just moving into a new age.

 

[Ajit_AP]

Jim, you are a tease. And not in a good way.

I have the Nikon D90, the skew can be seen but for most situations it isn't as bad as the footage you linked to. It is a not a camera that is meant to shoot video but it can do a fantastic job. I have shot about 20 minutes of handheld video without a problem. People who have seen these samples have been blown away. Part of the solution is to use a wider angle lens (I have a 20mm/35mm).

I will most likely buy the RED DSMC (and Scarlet) when it does come out. However, that is at least a year and a half away. But seriously, Jim, get a grip. Stop being a tease. When you are close to actually shipping a product, let's talk about it. I remember the Red release for all of the glitches.

Promise less and deliver more.

I cannot help but feel all of this DSMC talk is to stop filmmakers from committing to another technology. There is no need for that. When you ship, many people WILL buy your product.

Time is not renewable.

 

[androbot2084]

First of all I am not a photographer so the only way I can get good results is by taking frame grabs off of a video camera. I like the idea of burst shooting which starts taking photographs even before the trigger is fully depressed. I don't care how good you are but no one is a fast enough shooter to compete with a frame rate of 100 frames a second. Of course the purists will object just like they objected when the hand cranks were removed from movie cameras and replaced with motors.

 

[Jannard]

Jim, you are a tease. And not in a good way.

I have the Nikon D90, the skew can be seen but for most situations it isn't as bad as the footage you linked to. It is a not a camera that is meant to shoot video but it can do a fantastic job. I have shot about 20 minutes of handheld video without a problem. People who have seen these samples have been blown away. Part of the solution is to use a wider angle lens (I have a 20mm/35mm).

I will most likely buy the RED DSMC (and Scarlet) when it does come out. However, that is at least a year and a half away. But seriously, Jim, get a grip. Stop being a tease. When you are close to actually shipping a product, let's talk about it. I remember the Red release for all of the glitches.

Promise less and deliver more.

I cannot help but feel all of this DSMC talk is to stop filmmakers from committing to another technology. There is no need for that. When you ship, many people WILL buy your product.

Time is not renewable.

Fair observation... as from my side, we'll do this the way we want to and live with the consequences, even if it means pissing a few people off. You get to run your business the way you want.

As for the D90, I bought one to see for myself what the issues really are (or not). The stills are very good. Very nice consumer still camera. The video is not. The skew is totally unacceptable to me. You can mitigate it somewhat by shooting wide but I'd hate to be constrained or always worried about "what might be acceptable and what might not" when shooting any camera. This camera (shooting video) needs to be locked down. You can get some pretty good results if the camera does not move and the subject is not moving very fast. It is a start down the right path for many. Which is why we are building a DSMC.

Every camera is a compromise... the RED ONE and D90 are no exceptions. But the truth is what it is. The read-reset is too slow for this sensor to be used as a real motion capture camera where the results matter. And to answer Bob Simon's comment... unless the dealer works at Nikon and has inside scoop that no one else has, it will need a new sensor, not a firmware upgrade.

One last point... "what really matters" is subjective. We have targeted our products to professionals that make a living with their images. They have to hold up to being seen on a 60' cinema screen. If you don't need that, but rather want images for family history where they will only be seen in email QT's, this camera can do that. If you are looking to compare consumer cameras to professional ones, be prepared to get hammered here if your standards are too low. The RED ONE is being compared to film, the Arri D21, Genesis, etc. That is our target. When a consumer camera can match the images these cameras make, and can be bought for $1K... I'll buy one and go spend my time in Fiji.

Jim

 

[RobertP]

Jim, will you work with Adobe to allow the (still photo) RAW files from this future camera to be converted and processed in Adobe Camera RAW and Adobe Lightroom?

I'm a stock photographer, and I use many RAW converters, but I'm starting to work with LR more and more, not only with Canon files, but even with files from digital backs.

One more thing: Will we know the specs of the DSMC in December 2008?

 

[Kyle Presley]

Jim, you are a tease. And not in a good way... But seriously, Jim, get a grip.

Wow, how rude is that? RED has single-handedly changed the industry in one fell swoop with the RED One, and will truly revolutionize it with the Scarlet. Jim heads up RED team and if he were to "get a grip," I would be afraid of what that would mean for RED. Jim, continue what you're doing exactly as you're doing it.

And you, sir, should be a little more generous. Jim brought us a 4k cinema camera for an unprecedented low cost. RED is making it possible for me to shoot the way I've wanted to for years. I don't think I'm alone in saying that Jim deserves a little respect for what he's doing. Why don't you get grip and try running a 4k cinema company yourself? I'm sure you would be more than a little zealous if you were doing what they were. I have a feeling RED will continue to push the envelope. I am sure we are in for a lot of surprises.

I see the hype not as advertising and swaying the market, but rather as the enthusiasm these folks have for their products, in development and otherwise.

 

[Jason Ing]

Like I said before, I believe that part of the legitimate reason that there are early announcements is that it's part of Red's development process to listen to their customers BEFORE they finalize their product. I don't need to go into the benefits of listening to users.

And if Jim wants to have fun along the way, good for him. He deserves and earned it.