Dsmc..

[Sarah C.]

I'm surprised there "appears" to be more jelly in these clips than what my old Sony point-n-shoot pocket camera does, but then it(my ps camera) has other non-pro issues anyway...

~Sarah

 

[Eric Lange]

I'm not impressed by the 5D video. It looks like 720p upsampled and sharpened. Not pleasing at all and kinda crunchy looking.

I give you that. But so far its much more pleasing to me at least than my Sony HDV 1080i/Mini DV due to the small sensor on the Sony giving an almost total depth of field and looking very video like. My main interest in the Canon 5D mark II is the 21MP pixels for applications we develop for 3d capture systems/software. If the “movie” dynamic imagery is reasonably stable then we can employ it for real time face capture and character movement. I like the concept that on the Canon you can intersperse high res shots while you “rolling” although it leaves one second gaps in the footage. I/we are mainly exploring the FX angles, but if the images are stable it might find terrific utility for 3d capture in Video Games content development.

I/we are just as eager to get our hands on the DSMC as it solves a lot technical problems for us at potentially a tenth of the price for what we have to do. [We are currently designing more advanced systems around RED ONE and Leaf digital backs, would be nice to eliminate the redundancy for our applications]

So “crunchy” images with a shallow depth of field may characterize this type of image capture, (hopefully without jelly).

The video clips I have seen are of the girl looking at the bridge, the squirrel, the bird, the cars and the girl in the night time street, admittedly at a lower res than the original.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

One thing I do not like about the Canon 5d II is that you pay $2600 and it only shoots 30 frames per second. Can shooting at 30 frames per second be considered high definition?

High definition is usually defined by spatial resolution, not temporal. The RED ONE shoots 30 fps at 4k. And thats high definition for most people

 

[reality]

I give you that. But so far its much more pleasing to me at least than my Sony HDV 1080i/Mini DV due to the small sensor on the Sony giving an almost total depth of field and looking very video like.

Absolutely, but I guess I was expecting better quality.

 

[arun]

5D Mark 11 not that much pretty or better than D90 beacouse it dsn't have 24fps... (only 30fps) and without 24fps its usless with 1080p.. its shame for canon and if they started with 24p they hav to stop there hd camcorder busniess lol ....so jimm.... i have one humble request just dont say to wait for morethan 3 or 4 months to get DSMC after announcement....

 

[Eric Lange]

Absolutely, but I guess I was expecting better quality.

We can always hope…my expectations are a little lower but we are very much hoping for minimal Jelly/skew which also may be a far too high expectation.

We like the concept that we can gather short dynamic sequences, using our own lenses, with shallow depth field with large spatial sensor and a half decent (ish) dynamic range. Other than RED ONE, we would otherwise be stuck using industrial cameras that have very stable imagery but looks frankly very industrial. The color table/compression/dynamic range seems a bit nicer on the Canon 5D MII than a nasty industrial camera (even when the industrial camera costs $10k+).

Never the less a DSMC type camera is desperately needed.

 

[Buck Forester]

5D Mark 11 not that much pretty or better than D90 beacouse it dsn't have 24fps... (only 30fps) and without 24fps its usless with 1080p.. its shame for canon and if they started with 24p they hav to stop there hd camcorder busniess lol ....so jimm.... i have one humble request just dont say to wait for morethan 3 or 4 months to get DSMC after announcement....

Why do you say it's useless with 30p and not 24p?

 

[David Dennis]

In the DSLR Killer thread, somebody has written: " The new DSMC will be cheaper than Nikon. Instead of $1200 for D90 body, DSMC body would be $500. (I believe DSMC will be a lower priced knockoff of D90.) "

is this true? The new DSMC is a cheaper version of D90, for $500?
If true, that would be wonderful. The D90 is a fantastic camera at $1300.
I would wait for the $500 DSMC.

That message was really strange and I would not give it any kind of credibility. Jim may have contacts with manufacturers in China but I would picture him flying Tourist Class Commercial(*) before he would put out a product that was not designed with the fully professional services of the RED Team.

Jim generally builds cameras he wants to own. That means nothing cheap. He has already mentioned a metal body. I would expect his price point to be from D300-D700 territory - that is, $2,000-3,000. He's going to build something massively more capable than either camera, but it will be at a fair price, not an excessively low one.

Like others, I'm still trying to figure out how it's differentiated from Scarlet or even RED ONE but like most people on this list, if Jim builds it, I'd like one.

D

(*) Jim owns a Falcon Jet, so you can guess the odds of him flying on any airline. It's actually pretty cost effective to fly as long as he brings his team along.

 

[Jerrod Cordell]

Jim, you remind me of William Wallace in Braveheart when he rides on to the field of battle and consults with his friends and they ask him 'what are you going to do?' and he replies 'I'm going to pick a fight'.

After reading this, I just had to make this. Jim, this should totally be your new avatar.

FREEDOM!

 

[Andrew M.]

5D Mark 11 not that much pretty or better than D90 beacouse it dsn't have 24fps... (only 30fps) and without 24fps its usless with 1080p.. its shame for canon and if they started with 24p they hav to stop there hd camcorder busniess lol ....so jimm.... i have one humble request just dont say to wait for morethan 3 or 4 months to get DSMC after announcement....

Arguing about 24p or 30p is pointless, just go and check clips 5D is producing.
My cable HDTV that is 3 times compressed on top of compression is much better.
When picture is static on 5D, it is not bad, but as soon as there is any movement, the resolution drops to 16 pixels per sq inch or so. I think it is the choice of codec, low end MPG4 format. Any better codec will blew up the CPU on 5D I guess.

 

[Obin Olson]

can't wait to get that new sensor in our red !

 

[arun]

Nothing can do with 1080p with 30fps, yaa ofcourse u can shot some home functions etc thats al (only for personal usage) infact its absolutely useless for indifilm makers...

 

[P Andersson]

Try this one...

http://s477.photobucket.com/albums/rr134/jamesmel9/?action=view&current=DSC_0012.flv

This should do it. It is unfortunate that many will actually believe that "standard" CMOS sensors can do motion effectively. When the 1080P "other" camera is released, this should be the 1st test performed.

Jim

might this be what u asked for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ILR7uf4GM

looks like skew to me

(edit, already posted http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19160)

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I cannot believe that some people can see an original movie quality through the heavy youtube compression.

Very strange.

Or could be that some of them are fans of the other brand...

Also could be that I'm a blind :help: .

 

[Andrew M.]

I cannot believe that some people can see an original movie quality through the heavy youtube compression.

Very strange.

Or could be that some of them are fans of the other brand...

Also could be that I'm a blind :help: .

Canon has some HD 5D demo clips on the jp website.
They use HD flash to play it, well maybe Adobe HD flash is totaly compressed than, but I didn't see such bad compression on Adobe website HD 1080 flash demos.

Compare HD flash demos from Adobe website and Canon 5D demos on jp website.

Day and night difference.
Maybe Adobe demo was done from RED 4K source

 

[androbot2084]

Jim is promising higher framerates as well as higher resolution for his DSMC camera so it seems that his camera would be the logical choice.

 

[Daniel Browning]

I truly hope that the way forward does not only mean ever higher resolution (amongst other things). Already managing 4K-RAW files is stretching majority of the storage solutions (both on-line and backup) most of us have right now.

As long as Intel, Seagate, etc. continue to advance computer technology, I see no reason for RED to slow down. If you can't afford additional computer gear (even as prices drop precipitously), then just downsample the original material to something you can handle.

I (for one) would like to see Your sensor program also focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions.

You can always get better "image quality" in lower resolutions by just resampling the larger resolutions in post. It adds a delay to your post-production, but it's the only way to let the rest of us (with faster, newer gear) get the benefit of RED's new tech.

For dynamic range, yes, we'd all like to see an improvement there. However, increasing resolution has proven to be a good way to increase dynamic range. Not at the pixel level, where uninformed product reviews are done, but at the image level, where the differences actually matter. (Due to the fact that noise adds in quadrature, read noise tends to scale with pixel size, and Agranov's Law.)

I'm looking forward to when all the high tech has trickled down from digicams to DSLR cameras. Quantum efficiency, read noise, resolution, etc. are all many times better in 1/1.7" sensors (per area). QE is starting to catch up now that DSLR cameras are finally getting gapless microlenses (although not on the 5Dm2 yet).

 

[Peter Majtan]

Daniel, You clearly have not worked with Red One yet, at least not on a prolongate basis... I do happen to have the latest Apple gear and actual 4x4Gb fiber-optic storage, but this is not about what You can afford. That is a very lame justification...

Just look at Apple and the OS-X. Sure You could keep bringing in ever more features and the "latest" gear handles the OS without a problem. But even they woke up and realize that the code is quite unnecessarily heavy and in need of optimization. This is why Snow Leopard (10.6) is focusing primarily on OS optimization and code streamlining, instead of packing in another ton of features...

Also note that I have clearly said "also" when referring to their focus. In no way I am trying to say that what ever plans have been announced are useless or futile... As soon as Epic is out we will trade-in our Red One and I am pretty sure I will be getting the DSMC as soon as it is out as well... Jim & his team is absolutely correct in pushing further the image resolution and quality...

What I am trying to say is that for vast majority of future RED owners even Red One is overkill when it comes to resolution. And I am not talking about the current Red One owners (maybe few) - as they/we are very much after the higher-end workflows. I am talking about all the Scarlet users who will outnumber Red One at least 10:1 within the first year...

While we have several projects that do benefit from the higher resolutions, majority of our project will go through 2K DI. Sure You get a great image downscaling the 4K to 2K, but a the cost of huge storage requirements for both online and off-line (backup). You can fill a 1TB in a week of shooting quite easily, in our case even faster as we shoot stereo with two Red Ones...

Problem with Red One is that to go down to 3K You loose Your wide angles due to sensor crop. Especially for independent feature film projects on tighter budgets you will benefit from being able to shoot 3K. And the storage requirement is not 25% less as it would seem on the first glance. We are talking almost 50% reduction for storage, time required to handle the data, backup and of course image processing to name a few focus points in one's workflow...

There is definitely market for ~3K-RAW camera with Mysterium X / Monstro at S35 size with interchangeable lens mounts. It will fill the gap between Scarlet and Red One and it will nicely compliment Scarlet-based projects...

This is why I have said I would like to see the RED sensor program ALSO focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions - specifically the same 3K resolution Scarlet is going to have. This way You would not need to develop any new EPB's and associated electronics...

Rant Off...

 

[Daniel Browning]

You clearly have not worked with Red One yet...

I keep stopping by to use yours, but you're never home; off shooting in some mountains somewhere. I'm only using about ten terabytes of video storage right now, but I have some appreciation for the hassle of managing hundreds of terabytes.

This is why I have said I would like to see the RED sensor program ALSO focused on higher DR and image quality in the lower resolutions - specifically the same 3K resolution Scarlet is going to have. This way You would not need to develop any new EPB's and associated electronics...

It's better to use more (and better) compression than to reduce resolution. By the time you resample to the final resolution, any additional compression artifacts disappear.

So if RED provides a 28 MB/s mode for Monstro, even at 5K, it will allow for the same number of disk arrays per hour/week as you're using now. In fact, I bet that RED could invent a 14 MB/s 4K mode that would be sufficient for your 2K DCI.

 

[BobSimon]

I looked at the videos on this link:
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html
VeryGood.
My local dealer says people are already calling in orders for future delivery.
But, I will wait for the 28MP offer from Sony and whatever Panasonic is bringing out for Christmas.
The age of camcorders have ended.

I am still curious: what does DSMC stand for?