DSMC - Does Epic Really do it?

[Iain Philpott]

I have been following this forum since the outset. Joined in late 2008. I have stayed apace with RED in London in terms of stills & motion. As a working fashion photographer (not Vogue) shooting mainstream editorial and advertising (Pantene, Marks & Spencers etc) and shot a fare bit on Epic, just did REDucation at Pinewood the majority of my clients are regarding Epic as great vision but just emperor's new clothes.
I have seen some incredible stills from motion. In fact I have shot some but they have all been stills used as landscape (naturally from a landscape frame). Where I have to try and crop a full length fashion shot from the landscape format there is just not enough quality. If I rotate the camera problem solved. But that is not, for me, how stills from motion needs to work. I need to shoot the motion and the stills come from it or I'm back to using two cameras where that being the case for the sort of delivery I'm supplying, that while a DSLR might not cut it, a C300 is more than enough.

So my question. From where this started out are we going to see 'single frame' are we going to see 'flash sync'?

To complete the DSMC picture as stills guys we need to see a RED 645 chipped camera that when we crop a full length pic in landscape format it is at least as large as 35mm. Then we have true a true DSMC working solution.

I love RED and have produced some fantastic stills from it - I just need a 'vertical' solution that outside of a trendy magazine with loads of post works.

 

[John Marchant]

Pulling portraits from landscape format is just asking too much of the available resolution IMHO. If your lens is good enough, and you're willing to accept an 1800x2700 image you'll still be held up by the motion-oriented OLPF.

The question in my mind is; if the desired format for aesthetics is portrait, why not shoot the motion that way too? I'm seeing plenty of work that demands that now

 

[Iain Philpott]

Pulling portraits from landscape format is just asking too much of the available resolution IMHO. If your lens is good enough, and you're willing to accept an 1800x2700 image you'll still be held up by the motion-oriented OLPF.

The question in my mind is; if the desired format for aesthetics is portrait, why not shoot the motion that way too? I'm seeing plenty of work that demands that now

Your absolutely right but there lies the problem. While yes there is an increase in demand for 'vertical' motion that is still in the minority camp. What my clients want is motion (shot as normal - landscape) and then pull the stills.
That has to be the very basis of DSMC. The moment you have to rotate the camera to produce the still - DSMC is defeated. You might as well be shooting on two cameras. If your shooting on two cameras you have destroyed the reason for shooting Epic?

And there lies my dilemma - there is no definitive DSMC solution - at the moment. RED offering single frame and flash sync would actually be a start.

 

[paul schefz]

there are plenty examples out there showing a double page spread in W or vogue shot with epic or R1 or scarlet....which means a single page is a vertical crop of a horizontal shot....plenty big enough for editorial.....of course all depends on compression....RED ran a shot of the beautiful dior ad by inez and vanoodh as a fold out horizontal....that shot was probably (judging from the video) at 100fps or so with obviously pretty high compression....might have been hdrx? as well...regardless, she is running (movement, shutter speed?) towards the camera (which is backing away from her..added movement) in a versailles ballroom (TONS of detail, gold, highlights,.....)...the printed ad looks great, she is full length, but compared to what we are used to with modern digital capture, the image is lacking.....still a great image and considering that is taken from 100s of shots, worst conditions, everybody moving and the center page is a full length crop of a horizontal....it really blows your mind.....
compare that to the hair ad 5 pages later the detail/bla/bla...looks like crap.....
but if i am hired to shoot the hair ad, i won't use the red anyway...not vertical, not horizontal....
horses for courses....
i went with red because for a looser (not glam) more lifestyle shot (celebrity, editorial, even ads), the ability to shoot "both" is just amazing.....
i have really high hopes for dragon...it will make pulling stills a lot easier..... but even at that resolution it will never look as clean (plastic-ey?) as a 5DII (or III) at 100 iso....and it definitely won't give you the same look as a phase back or hasselblad.....but i have done that, not too big a fan....i would rather rent that for a day and shoot 90% on red...and the rest on canon/nikon....

i just shot a lookbook entirely on red....the client wanted to make sure we got detail in the fabric....i just shot full length extra shots vertical...but still kept the camera running....i really don't see the point in using flash because it really means 2 set ups and at that point it is much easier to just work with 2 cameras anyway....

 

[Iain Philpott]

2 set ups and at that point it is much easier to just work with 2 cameras anyway....

Exactly - you have answered the question. The RED concept for DSMC works within limited parameters. Within the fashion stills industry over the last couple of years it has been pitched (by various top creatives in London) as the utopia we have all been looking for. It's not - it fails on so many levels. Until a RED 645 chip comes to the for with single frame and flash sync it is not in anyway shape or form about to replace either my Canon 1D or (for some considerable time - 10 years +) my Hasselblad/Phase Back combo.

Dragon might go someway to move it forward - I'm praying! I just want one darn camera to do both properly and at the moment the only chance there is is RED! Come on RED - 645 Monstro sensor -NOW! (pleaseeeeee)

 

[Matthew B]

For portrait, for me it is all about working with strobe light instead of continuous. So flash sync would be a must have for me to use my RED instead of my 5diii... And then it snowballs from there - lighting gear, modifiers, shutter speed, etc.

That being said I'm using the RED for some motion portraits right now and for me a "motion portrait" is a different project entirely. I don't know if I really need them to be done on the same cam. (Different setups required as paul mentioned).

And I am anxious to see the "stills mode" work on the side handle eventually.

 

[Iain Philpott]

And I am anxious to see the "stills mode" work on the side handle eventually.

+ 1 - YES YES YES!

 

[paul schefz]

i have always prefered continuous light and the whole flash function really does not make much sense...any red will first and foremost be a motion camera.....
you can dream on about the 645 monstro.....99% of red owners and renters shoot with lenses that don't even cover FF....they won't abandon their cookes , zeiss's,....

i remember sending a friend in NY to a red demo at the piers...."check out the red! (one at the time)" when i asked him how it was he just told me that they had this video camera looking thing weighing 20lbs on a tripod and were all excited about the possibilities.....he just said: no sync, low pixel count, bad noise, bad skin tones, no AF, there is no way to hand hold it, no tethered shooting and it takes 2 minutes to start up.....and 10x more then my canon...i don't get it....
obviously red has come a LONG way especially for still shooters....
i think dragon will in many ways make the red a real still camera....one you might shoot with even if you don't need motion....but it still won't replace a digital back or even DSLR (AF!!!!)

 

[Iain Philpott]

i think dragon will in many ways make the red a real still camera....one you might shoot with even if you don't need motion....but it still won't replace a digital back or even DSLR (AF!!!!)

Without 'single frame' there will always be a work around. Without 'flash sync' you are living in cloud cuckoo land. On an average stills shoot - flash £300.00 rental, HMI £750.00 pd.

For Vogue and their artistic freedom, for Dazed & Confused who don't pay anything, RED can work, but for your average photographer who is shooting medium editorial (Cosmo/Elle level) there is just not the post budget to optimise it to it's best potential. Equally the catalogue clients just want 1080p. They don't give a shit about RAW or it's attributes, they see a video (5D) and anything else thats better is a question of how much?. Meizler module too expensive - bring on the Toia one!

I don't see RED promoting average editorial as 'Shot On RED'.

I hope Dragon is what you think it will be - I'm not so sure. RED has dropped the price on Epic which means it's trying to move out of the 'Cinema Sphere'. I note it now has REDucation for wedding guys at it's next tutorials in LA. That says it all. RED needs to expand it's base - weddings - it's a huge market. In reality much more important than supplying me and my 'still' partner swith 'Flash Sync' and 'Single Frame'.

I pray to be proved wrong........

 

[Mark Pugh]

Without 'single frame' there will always be a work around. Without 'flash sync' you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Around the time of the release of Epic, Jim posted that a regular flash won't work with the Epic, because of the rolling shutter.
He suggested a 'long duration flash'.
Whether such a thing actually exists, though...

 

[paul schefz]

Without 'single frame' there will always be a work around. Without 'flash sync' you are living in cloud cuckoo land. On an average stills shoot - flash £300.00 rental, HMI £750.00 pd.

For Vogue and their artistic freedom, for Dazed & Confused who don't pay anything, RED can work, but for your average photographer who is shooting medium editorial (Cosmo/Elle level) there is just not the post budget to optimise it to it's best potential. Equally the catalogue clients just want 1080p. They don't give a shit about RAW or it's attributes, they see a video (5D) and anything else thats better is a question of how much?. Meizler module too expensive - bring on the Toia one!

I don't see RED promoting average editorial as 'Shot On RED'.

I hope Dragon is what you think it will be - I'm not so sure. RED has dropped the price on Epic which means it's trying to move out of the 'Cinema Sphere'. I note it now has REDucation for wedding guys at it's next tutorials in LA. That says it all. RED needs to expand it's base - weddings - it's a huge market. In reality much more important than supplying me and my 'still' partner swith 'Flash Sync' and 'Single Frame'.

I pray to be proved wrong........

for everything you are describing a 5D is much better anyway....that is why it being used....
the advantage of red is simply the ability to get stills and motion done at once....have both and see what can be done with it....but because of the unfamiliar post workflow (editing stills from video?! what? how!) the 5D still makes more sense....
the interesting part for weddings is that in that case you are mostly documenting....things happen once and with red you have them both ways (hopefully)...but then again try shooting handheld in a crowd in a dark room wide open and get a usable shot pulling focus...or make sense of the hours of useless footage.....
check out the bikini shoot in the other thread here....makes sense to shoot that with red....light it once, get nice slowmo for a great looking 60sec clip and plenty of great expressions for stills plenty big enough for web or portfolio....

i got a red after talking to a friend, discussing pros-cons....we were looking at a interview? cover with an actor i had shot before (with an M8, not really a low light or megapixel monster either...and manual focus!) and i mentioned that of course it looks great with their post production budget.....we just looked at me and said: i worked on that shoot, i pulled that frame (with the AD), i touched it up and we printed it out 14x17" right there during the shoot.....