Dream Machine?

[Rynox2000]

Any technical reason?

 

[GlennChan]

Presumably assume because of the collaboration between Apple and Red??? But yes, editing Red footage should work on non-Mac platforms.

 

[Rynox2000]

I know, but by the way this entire forum talks no one else knows that.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Reasons I would choose a Mac over a PC...

Style, class, OSX, Final Cut Studio, Apple is still hogging all the 3GHz Xeon production, I can boot and run Windows anyway... RED is working directly with Apple for native REDCODE support. ProRes codec in FCS2.



Reasons I would choose a PC over a Mac...

Video card options. and, uh, that's it for now.

 

[Rynox2000]

Style and class don't help you get your work done more efficiently. Final Cut Studios best feature is its price, almost all other FCP features have been done before, and done better, by other company's. Most people aren't running Windows emulation but if you are, then you probably aren't getting as clean and powerful a machine as you would if it was just a Boxx or HP PC. ProRes is really overrated and doesn't compare to Avid DNxHD codecs. Red may have been approached early by Apple (having Graeme around probably helped that), but Red is not an Apple-owned company. It's in Red's best interest for growth as a company to sell to PC customers as well as Mac. Trust me, I'm a fan of technology in general. I'm one of the few who doesn't pick sides in the Mac/PC war. I just want the coolest gear possible. I think we all do. Sometimes the coolest gear is Mac, sometimes it's PC.

 

[Bruce Allen]

May I ask why everyone here automatically assumes that you need a Mac to use Red? Do mac's have something specific that Windows PC's don't have?

How about a version of Quicktime that is not deliberately made cripplingly slow by Apple?

I'm not saying Apple needs to make a fast Windows Quicktime. It's more like Microsoft dropped the ball when they fragmented their video APIs in such a weird way.

Red team, I am interested - how does your Quicktime codec compare on a similarly-specced PC? And RedCine? Also, how about the really high-end PC GPU options? It should be significantly faster then, right? Don't know if you guys have had a chance to optimize - your target market seems to be mostly FCP / Mac anyway. With some PC-based Scratching going on, of course!

That's me, current Windows / Avid user, just trying to plan whether he'll be buying a PC or a Mac in a year's time.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Style and class don't help you get your work done more efficiently.

True, but that's kinda the joke. We're being smart-asses.

Final Cut Studios best feature is its price, almost all other FCP features have been done before, and done better, by other company's. Most people aren't running Windows emulation but if you are, then you probably aren't getting as clean and powerful a machine as you would if it was just a Boxx or HP PC. ProRes is really overrated and doesn't compare to Avid DNxHD codecs.

Oh, don't worry, I'm a PC user too. In fact, I only own 3 Apple systems vs. close to 30 PCs (3 workstations, 2 servers and a whole bunch of render nodes, plus an HP notebook). I personally would never buy a BOXX system though, I've used plenty and rebuilt a few. Nice systems, but they use off-the-shelf parts like any other integrator and I don't see where they get off charging their prices. Their support burned me about 2 years ago. I build all my PCs (except notebooks). Why pay for the BOXX label and laser-cut Lian-Li aluminum case just so I can have an ARIMA or Tyan motherboard with Corsair RAM inside? Anyway, picking at various PC vendors isn't really the point. Oh, and Alienware sucks -- there is no PC company I hate more.

I didn't say I was running Windows emulation. I have OSX and Vista as dual boot options on my Macbook Pro and I run XP and Linux on my HP ZD7000 notebook. My other two Macs are G5 quads. I actually sold one of them, but the guy never came to pick it up. Heh. figures.

For editing I was happy using Vegas, but switched to FCP with my HVX purchase. I was a very early HVX adopter and there weren't many options. Even now, most PC editing applications still can't directly cope with Op-Atom MXF and DVCPROHD. I considered AVID, but Xpress Pro was the only Avid solution within my budget, but I found it dodgy and slow compared to FCP and rather buggy. AVID's MXF support was incomplete and buggy at the time too. And I had to manually tweak the MXF file header to get Xpress to properly load video shot at 1080i -- stupid program kept thinking it was Sony's XDCAM bastardized MXF format instead of the Op-Atom MXF. I also found DVDSP to be a huge leap ahead of Encore, DVDLab and others I was using in PC land at the time. Or at least a lot better than coughing up $5K for the base installation of Scenarist.

Yes, ProRes has its flaws, but isn't bad at all in HQ mode. DNxHD isn't perfect either.

Sometimes the coolest gear is Mac, sometimes it's PC.

I'll drink to that.

 

[Rob Lohman]

So would it make sense to do a crossfire card situation with 2 cards in your mac for extra GPU power?

No, for now we're supporting a single card.

 

[Rob Lohman]

how does your Quicktime codec compare on a similarly-specced PC? And RedCine?

We're working on all sort of optimizations and datarate fine tuning, so it's not really interesting at this point in time. More on this later.

Don't know if you guys have had a chance to optimize - your target market seems to be mostly FCP / Mac anyway. With some PC-based Scratching going on, of course!

PC / Windows is a first class citizen. I'm working on both systems daily and all the main code is fully cross-platform (same code base, same optimizations).

Obviously optimization is going on, and will continue after the camera ships since it takes a long time and many measurements and refinements to get right.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Style and class don't help you get your work done more efficiently. Final Cut Studios best feature is its price, almost all other FCP features have been done before, and done better, by other company's. Most people aren't running Windows emulation but if you are, then you probably aren't getting as clean and powerful a machine as you would if it was just a Boxx or HP PC. ProRes is really overrated and doesn't compare to Avid DNxHD codecs. Red may have been approached early by Apple (having Graeme around probably helped that), but Red is not an Apple-owned company. It's in Red's best interest for growth as a company to sell to PC customers as well as Mac. Trust me, I'm a fan of technology in general. I'm one of the few who doesn't pick sides in the Mac/PC war. I just want the coolest gear possible. I think we all do. Sometimes the coolest gear is Mac, sometimes it's PC.

PC is simply just BAD even in the BOXX or HP flavor. Avid is dying slowly but surely as choice of young or experienced editors. That is reality now. Terribly sorry PC guy. You've got a nervous and fat. That's a life.

 

[Rynox2000]

I can see why you think the way you do. Mac is flashy, it's cheap, and in some ways it is better then it's competition. But in some ways it's not. There's one problem with being cheap....and that is the fact that your cheap. No matter what Apple try's to do with FCP and programs like that, at it's heart it will always be an app for the younger generation, the newbies, the inexperienced. Yes, you could use Mac in professional projects, but most won't do it by choice. They'll do it because it's either the only thing they could afford, or they grew up using a cracked version of it and doesn't know anything else. Mac is great for a lot of people because it's easy to learn, and easy to get; but eventually every Mac user will hit the ceiling of what they can do, and move off to find other, better ways. I'm sorry Mac guy. You're still and will always be naive and juvinile. That's life.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can see why you think the way you do. Mac is flashy, it's cheap, and in some ways it is better then it's competition. But in some ways it's not. There's one problem with being cheap....and that is the fact that your cheap.

Interesting.

No matter what Apple try's to do with FCP and programs like that, at it's heart it will always be an app for the younger generation, the newbies, the inexperienced. Yes, you could use Mac in professional projects, but most won't do it by choice.

How do you define "professional projects"? The Mac and FCS apps get used by people every day, all over the world, to make money. Many with experience are adopting FCS, it's not just for newbies. I'm not sure where you came up with that crap. I've used Vegas, Premiere [Pro], AVID Xpress Pro and MC Adrenaline, Edius, SpeedRazor and a few others over the years. I currently own all those, except for the two AVID options and SpeedRazor went away with my VTNT a few years ago. I do most all my editing with Final Cut because I prefer it over the others. OK, I'd gladly edit on one of the higher-end AVID systems, but they don't offer anything I actually need over FCS to justify their price tag. In fact, they don't really offer anything I can't do with FCS or Adobe software these days. Sure, the editing can be a bit snappier and many feel that the EDLs generated by AVID are better. But who doesn't hand-tweak an EDL anyway, or at least proof it? And you say that Apple has nothing to offer that hasn't been done in other packages. Hmmm... Even if that were true, does it matter? The fact is, they're offering a good editing package RIGHT NOW for a good price. I have no loyalties to any other company, nor do I to Apple. As soon as something better comes along that fits into a similar price range and improves my tool set, I'll buy it.

They'll do it because it's either the only thing they could afford, or they grew up using a cracked version of it and doesn't know anything else. Mac is great for a lot of people because it's easy to learn, and easy to get; but eventually every Mac user will hit the ceiling of what they can do, and move off to find other, better ways. I'm sorry Mac guy. You're still and will always be naive and juvinile. That's life.

What's naive and juvenile is the arrogance and ignorance displayed in your comments. I know that a lot of Mac zealots can be pompous and ignorant at times, but for someone who claims to not pick sides in "the PC / Mac war", you sure have no trouble bashing Macs and Apple software with complete BS comments like this... I put a challenge to you to name one thing that you can do with Windows that can't be done with OSX. And I'm not talking application specific tasks, because there's always apps that don't cross platforms, that's not the game. Name one task where a Mac user would "hit the ceiling of what what they can do".

And tell me.. Just what tools do you prefer to use for your "professional work"? Really, I must know. If it's AVID MC, then I congratulate you on having the cash flow to support it (or working for someone who does). I would be curious just what about it justifies the costs over other choices. Because that extra bit of responsiveness doesn't justify $25K+ price premiums and support contracts. XPress Pro is prosumer all the way and I would take Premiere Pro or FCP over it without hesitation. If you choose Adobe software, then you're just making yourself look like an ass with the cracked copy comments. I don't think there has been an application more prolific than the Windows version of Photoshop on the warez scene, ever. And I know Premiere is a close runner-up, probably right behind 3DS Max.

I don't want to come across as a Mac zealot, I'm not. Like I said, I only own 3 Apple systems. Before my G5 quads, I haven't used an Apple since the lat '80s. Well, I did own a dual G4 with some sort of shut-down problem, but it was temporary for just one project over a 4 month term.

 

[Rynox2000]

Woosahhh my friend.

We all know there are different categories of content creation today. There is broadcast news, television, feature post, indie production, new media. I'll agree with you that I could have rephrased my wording. What I meant was that FCP is not very prominent in any of these categories, with Indie production probably being the one exception. Of course there are production workflows today that use FCP but my point is that most don't. Sure there are more people looking into alternative editing apps rather than the standard Avid, it would be stupid not to; but most broadcast networks, major film studios and post houses are not choosing FCP. With FCP so cheap you know the reason they didn't choose it wasn't the price it was just that it didn't fit into their workflow.

I think we can all agree that certain aspects of editing has become commoditized. Any editing app can put one clip in front of another, and then put a dissolve between them, add a title and some nifty flame and smoke effect, and then send to the web or out to a playout server. Trying to say that you perform these basic editing techniques better than alternative apps just doesn't make sense. If all you expect, and all that you need, from an editing app is this type of editing then sure, FCP or even Edius is fine. In that respect I would seriously question someone who is purchasing an Avid for 5000 dollars if all they will use it for is this type of basic editing. We can all agree that that just isn't practical. That's like saying you're going to buy a Fararri but only drive 20 miles per hour. Now I know what you're going to say, and I know there are "advanced" editing techniques in FCP very similar to the same techniques in an Avid but even these techniques are slowly becoming part of the commodity landscape.

I still think Avid has the best editing tools out there. It is also difficult to explain to editors who haven't worked with a Media Composer or DS, on ISIS shared storage, integrated with Interplay asset management, sharing bins and projects between editing suites and around the country...oh and all without a single 3rd party app to actually make it happen, about the benefits of such tools. For some professionals today they won't need them. But that will change and eventually these tools will also become expected and commoditized, Apple will buy or repackage similar tools for their own ends, and then we'll be having the same conversation again with the next generation of users. It's like a crazy circle, something out of the Matrix.

When I said that most FCP/Mac users are naive and juvenile I was referring to the stigma that most Mac users are new to computers and content creation world as a whole. I don't think you can argue against the fact that Mac's are very popular amongst the younger generation. Because of this most Mac discussions on these types of forums are so bullish and pro-Mac that there isn't any room for an educated debate. My problem with the younger generation is that most of the time they don't see the big picture, and so trying to discuss the pro's and con's of a Mac with them is very difficult. I don't want to say that they have tunnel vision, but it can seem that way sometimes. I'm also not saying that seasoned professionals don't use Mac's or FCP, because they do. And I would respect any seasoned professional for doing so if they took an honest look at other alternatives and then chose Mac and FCP because of an well-rounded and thought-out reason. Most users, Mac and PC, Avid and FCP alike, seem to just choose one because that is the one they have always used; because they "like it more", or because it was the only one they could afford and now need to justify themselves.

I think my point is that computers are still really new. It's been about 30 years since computers started showing up, and we are proving that the next generation of computer users, content creators and technical engineers care about design as much as they do practical use. That's why company's like Red kick ass, because they're funded by private interests who understand this, and let the new generation do things their way. Red isn't controlled buy Wall street posturing and when they rattle the sabre it is usually followed by real results. Companies like Avid were stuck in the past it's true, but now that they've had a massive change in their upper management and the new generation has taken over there as well, I believe we'll see some really cool new stuff coming from them. I think we can all admit that without company's like Red, Apple, Avid, Adobe, Nvidia, etc., the world would be a much blander place.

 

[GlennChan]

I'm sorry Mac guy. You're still and will always be naive and juvinile.

Whoa, easy there.

ProRes is really overrated and doesn't compare to Avid DNxHD codecs.

I'd be interested to see what your experience there is... it seems like they would mostly be the same. (But I haven't played with ProRes.)

2- For most of the people advocating FCP, FCP is likely a very good product for their needs. It doesn't necessarily make the most sense for every niche in the film/tv biz... but there are a lot of people doing indie filmmaking, corporate, event videography, etc. etc. for which FCP does make a lot of sense.

Certainly for niches like high-end online editing, color grading, there are specialized systems that tend to do a much better job than FCS. (And most of them are Linux-based.)

Different strokes for different folks?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Rynox2000, that was a much better and more concise post. I probably reacted a bit harsh to your other post. I guess I jumped in with both feet because I could see where some of your comments could have been inflammatory to many members here. Likewise, a few of us were just being smart-asses and didn't really mean to push any buttons with the style and class comments. I know that's the kind of FUD you see on the Mac fanboy sites, but we really don't have much of that around here. Surprising since so many here are Mac users. I think that speaks to a more skilled and professional userbase. Anyway, it's all good.

I take it you do edit with Avid? If so, I wouldn't worry, I think RED will incorporate just fine. Or at least that's the impression I get from comments directed at other Avid users who have asked. I can't imagine it not working with Avid, because as you say, it still is the standard in many segments of the industry.

 

[Jeremy Hughes]

16 hours of REDCODE RAW 4K@24fps on a 1.5TB Mac Pro. 32 hours on a 3TB Mac Pro. That's the complete maximum though.

Just something I thought I should note.

 

[PeteCoggan]

I can see why you think the way you do. Mac is flashy, it's cheap, and in some ways it is better then it's competition. But in some ways it's not. There's one problem with being cheap....and that is the fact that your cheap. No matter what Apple try's to do with FCP and programs like that, at it's heart it will always be an app for the younger generation, the newbies, the inexperienced. Yes, you could use Mac in professional projects, but most won't do it by choice. They'll do it because it's either the only thing they could afford, or they grew up using a cracked version of it and doesn't know anything else. Mac is great for a lot of people because it's easy to learn, and easy to get; but eventually every Mac user will hit the ceiling of what they can do, and move off to find other, better ways. I'm sorry Mac guy. You're still and will always be naive and juvinile. That's life.

OK, I can refrain from being a smartass but when you start spewing false rhetoric, I need to chime in. Yes, FCP is inexpensive but Macs most certainly are NOT. Quite the contrary, really. And BTW, have you compared a RED to an F900 recently? Cheap is no longer a good measure of quality. I was about the 1st guy to Jump to PCs when macs started going to Sh_t in the 90's. However, Mac and FCP simply blow the doors off of any PC app today. If you believe otherwise, you simply do not use the Studio suite... Well. We are a Smoke /Flame and FCP House. Most of the time, the Discreet boxes are dark, and we aren't upgrading any of them until next year (neither should anyone else, trust me). Additionally, the 8 Maya CGI Dells we have are very close to going Bye Bye. Oh, and guess what, NOT upgrading to Long Horn... Not even going to go into that explaination. So, get over you Mac issues. The machines and software work really well and appear to be getting better every release. Oh, forgot to mention, we haven't even powered up our Avids (PC or Mac) in 2 years... No one wants 'em. AND, I still try the Premiere suites every release. They go right back on the shelf every time.


Pete

 

[PeteCoggan]

Whoa, easy there.


I'd be interested to see what your experience there is... it seems like they would mostly be the same. (But I haven't played with ProRes.)

2- For most of the people advocating FCP, FCP is likely a very good product for their needs. It doesn't necessarily make the most sense for every niche in the film/tv biz... but there are a lot of people doing indie filmmaking, corporate, event videography, etc. etc. for which FCP does make a lot of sense.

Certainly for niches like high-end online editing, color grading, there are specialized systems that tend to do a much better job than FCS. (And most of them are Linux-based.)

Different strokes for different folks?

Studio Suite 2.0?

We were one of the extremely few houses using Color before apple acguired them. Anyone who claims Apple is not producing Pro apps does not know how to use them correctly.

We are also a Discreet (Smoke/Flame) house and are finding less and less those boxes will do that the Macs won't. Avid you ask? Believe they are to the Editorial world what Sony is to the Film World. Yes, I have a machine room full of really expensive Sony Decks. I also have speant years on most of the Avid platforms. And I will still be the guy most excited to whitness them become obsolete, unnecessay and irrelevant (Almost there already). If I need to explain this, you don't use either product line.

So, yes, I understand a new learning curve is frightening and 6 figure boxes that aren't paid off are hard to get over, but... If you are even on this forum you better realize you need to get over it... The revolution IS happening.

Pete

 

[Jim Arthurs]

We were one of the extremely few houses using Color before apple acguired them. Pete

And there's an international RE/MAX commerical we did back in January, now in current rotation, graded at Pete's place, at the hands and through the eyes of colorist Rick Gougler to back that statement up!

Though, in keeping with the nature of the PC smart-ass I am, I have to reveal that no Macs were harmed in any aspect of the actual CREATION of the spot before the grading...

 

[PeteCoggan]

HA! Most fun.

Pete