Dragon V2 Aerial Night Shoot Advice

[Charles Bergquist]

We're doing a lot of night work next weekend and one scene is aerials from a helicopter at dusk into night with my Dragon V2.

I came across this work, does anyone know if this is shot with the Dragon V1 or V2 ?

https://vimeo.com/87128548

https://vimeo.com/84018640

More specifically, if the above is V1, does anyone have any night aerial footage with the Dragon V2?

 

[charles lim yi yong]

My gut tells me to rent a RED EPIC for night shoots.

 

[David Battistella]

My gut tells me you should maybe shoot this on the dragon V2.

battistella

 

[Luke Neumann]

We're doing a lot of night work next weekend and one scene is aerials from a helicopter at dusk into night with my Dragon V2.

I came across this work, does anyone know if this is shot with the Dragon V1 or V2 ?

https://vimeo.com/87128548

https://vimeo.com/84018640

More specifically, if the above is V1, does anyone have any night aerial footage with the Dragon V2?

I am fairly certain this was Nathan's camera (Garofalos) and if that's the case, it was V1.

 

[Greg McDonald]

Yeah, that Axiom stuff was shot on v1.

 

[David Battistella]

I remember when these first came out and I don't think the V2 "highlight" OLPF was in any cameras yet. The video was posted five months ago so almost certainly V1 lowlight OLPF.

if you are going dusk to dark next week the moon is waning so you will have a totally dark night sky with none of that extra bit of moonlight.

Depends also what glass you are using. I would say anything T1.8 or faster would be fine into the night.

Battistella

 

[Brian Merlen]

cant you test ahead of time to confirm? also it comes down to glass/shutter/AND OLPF...you can change all three to manipulate luma levels...if its pitch black an arri or red would both make noise, even with a leica noctilux...

 

[charles lim yi yong]

One option to consider, which I use a fair number of times is to drop the shutter speed / shutter angle to the lowest possible. This will work for shots which are well stabilised (gyro or fixed position), to avoid motion blur from jerky motions.

 

[CJ Roy]

We're doing a lot of night work next weekend and one scene is aerials from a helicopter at dusk into night with my Dragon V2.

I came across this work, does anyone know if this is shot with the Dragon V1 or V2 ?

https://vimeo.com/87128548

https://vimeo.com/84018640

More specifically, if the above is V1, does anyone have any night aerial footage with the Dragon V2?

Hey Charles, we shot those with V1 OLPF.

As of right now, we won't be shooting night aerials with V2 and went back to the MX for a recent shoot.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

As of right now, we won't be shooting night aerials with V2 and went back to the MX for a recent shoot.

Charles, our tests for night shooting resulted in same conclusion as CJ at Axiom. We simply rented an additional MX for a short period to cover the darker shoot.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Thanks everyone for the input, much appreciated!

CJ thanks for the info, you guys do great work! My set up will be much lower budget, slip sliding with a MoVI but our main issue is we won't be able to change lenses once in the air in the event of not having enough light.

Has there been any timeframe update when the V1 will be available for swap out?

 

[CJ Roy]

Thanks.

Not sure about timeframes, but Brent had written me that they will do a one-time swap. "One shot deal, once it is in, it is back in."

Where are you shooting?

 

[David Battistella]

Hey Charles, we shot those with V1 OLPF.

As of right now, we won't be shooting night aerials with V2 and went back to the MX for a recent shoot.

Hey CJ thanks for posting here. I'm a bit surprised you'd go MX over dragon but good to know.

Battistella

 

[CJ Roy]

Hey CJ thanks for posting here. I'm a bit surprised you'd go MX over dragon but good to know.

Battistella

I'm a bit surprised that you're surprised.

Aerials are victim to natural or available light, and some cities are significantly darker than others. The "learn how to light" argument that's been prominent on this board, doesn't apply to aerials.

For now, the V2 OLPF is too noisy for night time aerial shooting. Side by side, in my own testing, the MX has been better for low light results. It's not ideal, but it's better than the Dragon, IMO.

The DEB post-solution doesn't work for us, as we sell a lot of raw R3D's. We need footage to work out of the box, as best as possible. I can't provide the tech support to our customers and I can't expect them to sift through tens of thousands of threads on RU. So right now, it's unsellable.

While the multi-OLPF may solve some of these issues, for us it looks cumbersome and problematic. It already takes too much time to swap a lens with aerial gimbals, and adding the OLPF swap-out to that equation makes it worse. Landing zones are outdoors, which makes the camera prone to the elements. Lots of dust, rain, etc. When you're filming around the country, traveling great distances, you rarely have a hangar to overnight in. So anything we can do avoiding mount type swaps, we do.

Ultimately I may go back with V1, but I'm also looking into other cameras as well. Which is not a decision I've come to easily. I've been a Red customer from day 1 with #96. I sell a lot of Red footage to shows and films that are shot entirely on other cameras, our NYC footage was all over Red's booth at NAB and have been a sponsor of this forum. But if other cameras are better for lowlight, then I need to take them up for a spin.

 

[David Battistella]

Hey CJ,

I'm in a lot of those types of situations as well and not everything I do is fully lit on a set or a stage. I've shot in many locations in Florence, churches mainly, where there is no way to light and you have to (like a night arial) grab the images with whatever available light there is.

Since ce getting my Dragon (V2) I have been in many of the same locations and I have been able to "side by side" with MX footage I have from the same location, same lenses, etc. Even before DEB I would have chosen the Dragon in my tests. and that's not because I bought the upgrade, but because I feel the image is better and gives that extra.

I see your POV and why you might go that way, but I think it's fair to let you know what my reasoning is.

Cheers,
battistella

 

[charles lim yi yong]

I'm a bit surprised that you're surprised.

Aerials are victim to natural or available light, and some cities are significantly darker than others. The "learn how to light" argument that's been prominent on this board, doesn't apply to aerials.

For now, the V2 OLPF is too noisy for night time aerial shooting. Side by side, in my own testing, the MX has been better for low light results. It's not ideal, but it's better than the Dragon, IMO.

The DEB post-solution doesn't work for us, as we sell a lot of raw R3D's. We need footage to work out of the box, as best as possible. I can't provide the tech support to our customers and I can't expect them to sift through tens of thousands of threads on RU. So right now, it's unsellable.

While the multi-OLPF may solve some of these issues, for us it looks cumbersome and problematic. It already takes too much time to swap a lens with aerial gimbals, and adding the OLPF swap-out to that equation makes it worse. Landing zones are outdoors, which makes the camera prone to the elements. Lots of dust, rain, etc. When you're filming around the country, traveling great distances, you rarely have a hangar to overnight in. So anything we can do avoiding mount type swaps, we do.

Ultimately I may go back with V1, but I'm also looking into other cameras as well. Which is not a decision I've come to easily. I've been a Red customer from day 1 with #96. I sell a lot of Red footage to shows and films that are shot entirely on other cameras, our NYC footage was all over Red's booth at NAB and have been a sponsor of this forum. But if other cameras are better for lowlight, then I need to take them up for a spin.

I did a series of shoots at sea attempting to to capture the beam of a lighthouse. This was before the Dragon came out, I shot it with RED epic and Sony F55 and to my surpise . The RED epic came out with better results in extreme lowlight conditions. I am curious how does the RED epic MX sensor compare to the Dragon v1?

 

[CJ Roy]

Hey CJ,

I'm in a lot of those types of situations as well and not everything I do is fully lit on a set or a stage. I've shot in many locations in Florence, churches mainly, where there is no way to light and you have to (like a night arial) grab the images with whatever available light there is.

Since ce getting my Dragon (V2) I have been in many of the same locations and I have been able to "side by side" with MX footage I have from the same location, same lenses, etc. Even before DEB I would have chosen the Dragon in my tests. and that's not because I bought the upgrade, but because I feel the image is better and gives that extra.

I see your POV and why you might go that way, but I think it's fair to let you know what my reasoning is.

Cheers,
battistella

To each their own, certainly. However, I'm betting you're still dealing with more light in those dimly lit churches, than what we have on the average night aerial. Or your Dragon is performing better than the 4 or 5 I've had access to. With every one of them the noise was better at nearly every ISO above 800.

In regards to aerials, unless you're relatively close on a building, the majority of your frame is black or 0-10 IRE. There might be some streets and other stuff, but it's usually a star field. Modern skyscrapers with entire glass/mirror exteriors only reflect the city lights, as opposed to being illuminated by them.

For the Vegas strip, Kowloon, Times Square and downtown LA, you might be ok with the Dragon V2. But for Chicago, San Diego, DC, Seattle, Portland, Miami, Philly, etc. I'd go with something else.

 

[CJ Roy]

I did a series of shoots at sea attempting to to capture the beam of a lighthouse. This was before the Dragon came out, I shot it with RED epic and Sony F55 and to my surpise . The RED epic came out with better results in extreme lowlight conditions. I am curious how does the RED epic MX sensor compare to the Dragon v1?

V1 was pretty good, I might go back to it.

EDIT: Good for night aerials, that is.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

The DEB post-solution doesn't work for us, as we sell a lot of raw R3D's. We need footage to work out of the box, as best as possible. I can't provide the tech support to our customers and I can't expect them to sift through tens of thousands of threads on RU. So right now, it's unsellable.

While the multi-OLPF may solve some of these issues, for us it looks cumbersome and problematic. It already takes too much time to swap a lens with aerial gimbals, and adding the OLPF swap-out to that equation makes it worse. Landing zones are outdoors, which makes the camera prone to the elements. Lots of dust, rain, etc. When you're filming around the country, traveling great distances, you rarely have a hangar to overnight in. So anything we can do avoiding mount type swaps, we do.

Ultimately I may go back with V1, but I'm also looking into other cameras as well. Which is not a decision I've come to easily. I've been a Red customer from day 1 with #96. I sell a lot of Red footage to shows and films that are shot entirely on other cameras, our NYC footage was all over Red's booth at NAB and have been a sponsor of this forum. But if other cameras are better for lowlight, then I need to take them up for a spin.

...similar situation as well, not with aerials but work in general in relation to low light handling on Epic MX v. Dragon V2. Sunk a lot into the Dragon so my position is pretty locked in camera wise on this partially little aerial shoot, as we only need to get a few specific things. BTW we're shooting over downtown LA down a few streets, per your thoughts on LA as being one that might be ok, we're hoping it works out. It's a part of a project that'll give us enough leeway that we can experiment on it. First time we're taking up the MoVI as well, so we'll see.

Anyway, thanks for the insight on D V1 v. V2, you're V1 stuff of downtown LA is great.

Just for fun, thought I'd ask, can you guys mount an A7s on your rig? Might be cool over some desert, full moonlight...when then get that 4K recorder situation figured out.

 

[CJ Roy]

...similar situation as well, not with aerials but work in general in relation to low light handling on Epic MX v. Dragon V2. Sunk a lot into the Dragon so my position is pretty locked in camera wise on this partially little aerial shoot, as we only need to get a few specific things. BTW we're shooting over downtown LA down a few streets, per your thoughts on LA as being one that might be ok, we're hoping it works out. It's a part of a project that'll give us enough leeway that we can experiment on it. First time we're taking up the MoVI as well, so we'll see.

Anyway, thanks for the insight on D V1 v. V2, you're V1 stuff of downtown LA is great.

Just for fun, thought I'd ask, can you guys mount an A7s on your rig? Might be cool over some desert, full moonlight...when then get that 4K recorder situation figured out.

Charles, contact me off-list about your shoot, or what you may need. Maybe we can help. (cj at axiomimages.com) We've got about 800 shots of Downtown here: http://www.axiomimages.com/aerial-stock-footage/locations/downtown-los-angeles

I've only seen a few videos shot with the handheld gimbals from a helicopter and they haven't matched what the aerial gimbals are designed to do. Shooting out the side is always far more limiting.

The A7s at night an interesting idea. We primarily use Pictorvision's Eclipse, which you can mount anything to it. For night in the desert, or anywhere, it'd have to be a full night-vision setup. Hills, mountains and wires are really hard to see at night from the air. I'm not sure how safe it would be. Interesting idea though.