Dragon Upgrades ...

[Michael Gyori]

Meryem, interesting idea. I'll contact some rental houses and see what they say. I think most of them will not be interested though because rental houses have very strict requirements for the camera packages they rent out and my Dragon will not have everything they require.

 

[David Battistella]

Just reading these last few posts in a revived thread.

All this energy you are putting into worrying about what camera to shoot your movie on is all being taken away from the creative process of making a film. There are a zillion great films made on EPIC MX. Heck, you could crank a 5D up to 2000 ISO, buy neat video and go from there.

Point is, as I read this I am hearing a the sound of whining and some pre-excuses in case the movie is no good (like if I only shot on Dragon it would have been o much better). My advice, get over this kind of thinking, it's not healthy.

Buck up, make your movie on the great camera you have in your hands. Make your next one on Dragon. Or in other words, concentrate on the movie and shot design, etc.



Battistella

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Just reading these last few posts in a revived thread.
Point is, as I read this I am hearing a the sound of whining and some pre-excuses in case the movie is no good (like if I only shot on Dragon it would have been o much better). My advice, get over this kind of thinking, it's not healthy.

You seem to be heavily overly reaching saying Michael Gyori is making pre-excuses for his movie being no good. As film makers this is quite a serious statement to make? Yes? We do not read him saying what you suggest, not in any way did he say this.

You are a constant defender of Red but exaggerated words will not help them. Excuse me if you meant some one else than Michael is making excuses for his film being no good but I can find no-one else you could mean.

 

[Jon Carr]

Jon, the main reason I wanted to shoot with the Dragon was for it's supposed greater sensistivity (although there may be a problem with that with the latest OLPF and firmware). I was told at Reducation in LA in December 2013 that I could expose Dragon for 1280 to 2000 ISO. Our film is a low budget horror with little time for timely lighting setups, shot mostly at night. The idea of getting clean video at 2000 ISO was very attractive. Personally, I don't care as much about highlight roll-off and more about clean low-light video, which is usually the realm of low-budget filmmaking. Good lighting usually takes time, time is money, and money we have little of. In our $200k feature we'll have to shoot 6+ pages a day. Dragon would save us time and money if we could expose for 2000 ISO.

Getting a Dragon right AFTER filming our first feature will be like winning the lottery 1 minute after dying.

But yes, I'm sure we will make a great feature with our Epic. It's a great camera. I just wanted to avoid many hours of trying to denoise under exposed footage... and of course get better highlights and skin tones.

I never needed to light dragon for 2000 yet. The highest I felt I needed to light it was 800 and I light very dark and moody so you can under expose the MX and get real clean images. I do it all the time. Never had noise issues when I under exposed with my epic. But I usually never go past 320ISO on my epic. Cause its a 320ISO sensor. I don't care about the 320 vs 800 argument. Its 320 when you wanna be dark with your lighting. For a example of under exposing the MX sensor check out my link. http://www.joncarrdp.com/#/chelsea-grin-clockwork/ all 320ISO with very, very minimum lighting, the director said go as dark as you want. for the office scene there were mostly no units, mostly just worked with tweaking and shaping the practicals. And if I needed to bring a unit in, it would be a small kino with 1 bulb on if any. All images straight from camera no CC, no denoise. So it can be done. For a 4 year old sensor, it still holds a great image light or dark.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

As the Dragon M is in stock, perhaps selling the MX and buying new is an alternative to think about.

I just checked: http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-m-dragon-brain-only

(It is obviously more expensive, but you get a lot of warranty during that deal, which you might not have with the upgrade. Perhaps more worth later, than the extra money now)
.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Meryem, interesting idea. I'll contact some rental houses and see what they say. I think most of them will not be interested though because rental houses have very strict requirements for the camera packages they rent out and my Dragon will not have everything they require.

A fellow owner-operator who may rent their gear or who may have their own feature that they are shooting - these are your best bets, in this situation. It's always good to have local RED friends who will do gear swaps, inexpensive rentals, and favor exchanges. Smaller rental houses, who don't necessarily keep tons of inventory on hand but may rely on owner-operators to sublease their gear can be good partners, too. Best of luck with your movie.

 

[Michael Gyori]

Just reading these last few posts in a revived thread.

All this energy you are putting into worrying about what camera to shoot your movie on is all being taken away from the creative process of making a film. There are a zillion great films made on EPIC MX. Heck, you could crank a 5D up to 2000 ISO, buy neat video and go from there.

Point is, as I read this I am hearing a the sound of whining and some pre-excuses in case the movie is no good (like if I only shot on Dragon it would have been o much better). My advice, get over this kind of thinking, it's not healthy.

Buck up, make your movie on the great camera you have in your hands. Make your next one on Dragon. Or in other words, concentrate on the movie and shot design, etc.


Battistella

Sigh. We of course will make a great movie with our Epic. My side of the production is mostly technical and post production. The crew doesn't care what camera we use, but me, as a huge advocate of Red cameras and the extra resolution they provide, the huge latitude for grading they provide, and the reframing options they provide, would love to use the best Red camera, shooting at 6k and finishing in 4k. If there is a better tool that I thought I would have for the shoot, of course I'm going to be disappointed if I don't have it.

If I didn't want what the Dragon was offering, why would I want to pay $9500 for it? If the 5D Mark III gave me what I wanted, I must be insane for droping $50k on Red gear.

 

[Michael Gyori]

I never needed to light dragon for 2000 yet. The highest I felt I needed to light it was 800 and I light very dark and moody so you can under expose the MX and get real clean images. I do it all the time. Never had noise issues when I under exposed with my epic. But I usually never go past 320ISO on my epic. Cause its a 320ISO sensor. I don't care about the 320 vs 800 argument. Its 320 when you wanna be dark with your lighting. For a example of under exposing the MX sensor check out my link. http://www.joncarrdp.com/#/chelsea-grin-clockwork/ all 320ISO with very, very minimum lighting, the director said go as dark as you want. for the office scene there were mostly no units, mostly just worked with tweaking and shaping the practicals. And if I needed to bring a unit in, it would be a small kino with 1 bulb on if any. All images straight from camera no CC, no denoise. So it can be done. For a 4 year old sensor, it still holds a great image light or dark.

I agree that choosing a lower ISO (like 320 or 500) is the way to go with the Epic. A lack of light is usually a concern in my realm of film-making. But I don't understand how you can say that you've never had noise issues when you under expose. I can send you plenty of Red footage with lots of noise in the under-exposed areas of the frame. Black shading every minute doesn't remove noise for under-exposed video.

 

[Michael Gyori]

You seem to be heavily overly reaching saying Michael Gyori is making pre-excuses for his movie being no good. As film makers this is quite a serious statement to make? Yes? We do not read him saying what you suggest, not in any way did he say this.

You are a constant defender of Red but exaggerated words will not help them. Excuse me if you meant some one else than Michael is making excuses for his film being no good but I can find no-one else you could mean.

Thanks Bohdan. You are completely correct.

 

[Jon Carr]

I agree that choosing a lower ISO (like 320 or 500) is the way to go with the Epic. A lack of light is usually a concern in my realm of film-making. But I don't understand how you can say that you've never had noise issues when you under expose. I can send you plenty of Red footage with lots of noise in the under-exposed areas of the frame. Black shading every minute doesn't remove noise for under-exposed video.

Email me some of your r3d stills for me to look at. I'll also email you some of my r3d stills that I underexposed if you want to compare them.

 

[David Battistella]

I hear you.

Everyone (well mostly everyone) wants their epic dragon sooner rather than later. A great movie can and has been made on any camera. While I waited for my epic MX upgrade I created a little film that's had 1.1 million vimeo views. I don't wish that film was shot on dragon. I'm as technical as they come and I completely appreciate the fact you'd like to have your upgrade sooner. Who doesn't want that?

Im im not into reviving or continuing that discussion on a thread that was dormant for 18 months.

As as for my initial statement. I stand by what I wrote.

When the words "or the intention of the words" is "Yeah, but" ____________insert problem with xyz here. It starts to sound like excuses.

As as for your defender with seven posts. Well, I won't go there.


Battistella

Sigh. We of course will make a great movie with our Epic. My side of the production is mostly technical and post production. The crew doesn't care what camera we use, but me, as a huge advocate of Red cameras and the extra resolution they provide, the huge latitude for grading they provide, and the reframing options they provide, would love to use the best Red camera, shooting at 6k and finishing in 4k. If there is a better tool that I thought I would have for the shoot, of course I'm going to be disappointed if I don't have it.

If I didn't want what the Dragon was offering, why would I want to pay $9500 for it? If the 5D Mark III gave me what I wanted, I must be insane for droping $50k on Red gear.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Thanks Bohdan. You are completely correct.

You are going about things correctly. Good luck with your project.

 

[David Battistella]

You seem to be heavily overly reaching saying Michael Gyori is making pre-excuses for his movie being no good. As film makers this is quite a serious statement to make? Yes? We do not read him saying what you suggest, not in any way did he say this.

You are a constant defender of Red but exaggerated words will not help them. Excuse me if you meant some one else than Michael is making excuses for his film being no good but I can find no-one else you could mean.

maybe I was generally suggesting that cameras do not make films. I could have been talking about you.

i stand and by what I wrote and I do not support opening up dialog like this in a 18 month old thread.

If anyone has a legitimate complaint about their dragon delivery time, what a newbie rep told them, the Mx's lowlight ability over dragon, or any other RED general timeline issue then I think it would be best to open up a thread saying as much rather than littering a thread with veiled complaints.

I hear what the guy is saying and to me it has the ring of a whine. You don't read it that way. No problem. You can have your own opinion.

Now, to your veiled fanboy comment. I would have preferred that one directly to my face. In the same room. You know, face to face.

Battistella

 

[Bohdan Klos]

maybe I was generally suggesting that cameras do not make films. I could have been talking about you.

i stand and by what I wrote and I do not support opening up dialog like this in a 18 month old thread.

If anyone has a legitimate complaint about their dragon delivery time, what a newbie rep told them, the Mx's lowlight ability over dragon, or any other RED general timeline issue then I think it would be best to open up a thread saying as much rather than littering a thread with veiled complaints.

I hear what the guy is saying and to me it has the ring of a whine. You don't read it that way. No problem. You can have your own opinion.

Now, to your veiled fanboy comment. I would have preferred that one directly to my face. In the same room. You know, face to face.

Battistella

You misread. I did not say whether I did or did not agree someone was whining. I took up discussion on you accusing Michael of making pre-excuses for his movie not being good. That is what I disagreed with and is a horrible accusation I would not want directed at me.

You seem quite aggressive yet your avatar says LOVE. If we ever meet I will shake your hand at least.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm going to be shooting a couple projects in the next couple months that I know would look better on Dragon. I'll probably have Dragon and one MX and it'll turn out great, but I wish my body could be upgraded for that shoot. It's going to need every stop of dynamic range possible and HDRx won't be an option. Almost everything is going to be partial forest cover--the worst possible dynamic range situation without any options to transport large fill lights.

That's not whining or an excuse it's just the reality that it's disappointing that you know something could be X better.

 

[J Obertone]

To those with any doubt, yes. Your movie will totally suck unless you shoot on Dragon! I also happen to have one for rent as well. I'm just sayin!
But seriously, If you are an Epic/scarlet owner waiting for an upgrade for an upcoming project throw me a line, let me know your budget, I would love to get you a dragon and make a good owner/operator contact.
To my knowledge there are a bunch of dragon bodies for rent with sympathetic owners.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm going to be shooting a couple projects in the next couple months that I know would look better on Dragon. I'll probably have Dragon and one MX and it'll turn out great, but I wish my body could be upgraded for that shoot. It's going to need every stop of dynamic range possible and HDRx won't be an option. Almost everything is going to be partial forest cover--the worst possible dynamic range situation without any options to transport large fill lights.

That's not whining or an excuse it's just the reality that it's disappointing that you know something could be X better.

True.

Every project ect will look better on dragon. I've had it for six weeks and there is no looking back. The options this thread are suggesting are correct.

1. Make a deal with someone to get a dragon for your shoot.
2. Buy an m or a carbon. (You'd probably have it within a week)
3. Wait. (At a bargain cost of 9k)

that at pretty much the reality of now. I shot four projects on MX while waiting for dragon. I would have loved to have it sooner. But you work with what you have and what you can afford and what makes sense for the project. A film with zero or even a 200,000 budget benefits greatly from using any RED offering, even Scarlett.

Not long ago the capture options for these films were severely limited.

Now we lament that 4k isn't enough. It makes me smile.

Many people might feel the way Michael does, they just don't post it. And for the record. If I was in Vancouver i'd loan you my Dragon for the shoot and have you keep the MX as a b cam or back up on set.

I'm sure there is someone in that area that supports Indy film enough to help out in some way.

Battistella

 

[Brice Ansel]

I hear you.

Everyone (well mostly everyone) wants their epic dragon sooner rather than later. A great movie can and has been made on any camera. While I waited for my epic MX upgrade I created a little film that's had 1.1 million vimeo views.
Battistella

The original Red M was a work house indeed. ;-