Dragon poll

[Gunleik Groven]

Not just Build 20/21. Art Adams shot charts on Build 30, then checked out the results in Camera RGB mode - the channel crosstalk was still there. But when he switched to RedColor, it was gone.

I suspect this means the crosstalk is in the sensor but that RED is compensating for it with brilliant color science.



Personally I speculate it is this way:

- on M and MX sensors, the blue channel also lets a little non-blue light by mistake or design (because the blue channel is the noisiest channel, I suspect maybe by design they let in some green light - eg sacrifice some color purity for less noise)

- RED has compensated for this with clever math. Over various builds and RedColor iterations, this math has evolved.

- Color fidelity is now better, but still not as good as if the blue channel were just super-pure to start with.

- with Dragon, all of the channels are less noisy. So if RED wanted to, they could design the blue channel to be very pure (though at the expense of some more noise)

So, for Dragon and future sensors, RED is going to make a very real design choice between:
- slightly less noise
and:
- slightly better color purity

This is the only reason I'm being so vocal. Like you, I think that low-light noise is not the biggest issue. If they optimize for that over all else, because everyone clamors for "LOW LIGHT! LOW LIGHT!" it'll be sad.

So I am just going to sit here and piss everyone off by saying "NICE COLORS! NICE COLORS!" to try to even things out

Well, actually, I will try to stop being rude. Sorry! But you did ask for our poll on Dragon

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bitch on!

I love what RED has released. Not so fond of some marketing things. Your insight is allways welcome!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

You know in wildlife shooting its typically a problem you are quite too far from the animals and birds. And the Dragon update to Epic will make my wide angles already wider. ;-)

Seriously speaking I won't be surprised if the white elephant -Gunleik, you posts are one of my favorites- becomes a popular camera. In my eyes it makes quite a lot more sense than the C50..., sorry, I mean the black elephant.

I would not either. Actually f. ex. digital Bolex is now one of the companies thinking "out of the box", after all the big dogs went for RED Copy, and RED ditched the other segment for bigger-bigger-bigger.

I liked out-of-the-box with RED, to the extent that I work RED material and cameras allmost every day. I still like people looking at the issues from another angle, and I allways thought I'd like a scarlet 2/3" for the exact reasons it was ditched (besides the fixed lense, but that was only one in the program); Smaller sensorsize, less resolution... That was I wished for. Don't really need the current as a companion to an Epic...

 

[Eric Haase]

Not just Build 20/21. Art Adams shot charts on Build 30, then checked out the results in Camera RGB mode - the channel crosstalk was still there. But when he switched to RedColor, it was gone.

I suspect this means the crosstalk is in the sensor but that RED is compensating for it with brilliant color science.



Personally I speculate it is this way:

- on M and MX sensors, the blue channel also lets a little non-blue light by mistake or design (because the blue channel is the noisiest channel, I suspect maybe by design they let in some green light - eg sacrifice some color purity for less noise)

- RED has compensated for this with clever math. Over various builds and RedColor iterations, this math has evolved.

- Color fidelity is now better, but still not as good as if the blue channel were just super-pure to start with.

- with Dragon, all of the channels are less noisy. So if RED wanted to, they could design the blue channel to be very pure (though at the expense of some more noise)

So, for Dragon and future sensors, RED is going to make a very real design choice between:
- slightly less noise
and:
- slightly better color purity

This is the only reason I'm being so vocal. Like you, I think that low-light noise is not the biggest issue. If they optimize for that over all else, because everyone clamors for "LOW LIGHT! LOW LIGHT!" it'll be sad.

So I am just going to sit here and piss everyone off by saying "NICE COLORS! NICE COLORS!" to try to even things out

Well, actually, I will try to stop being rude. Sorry! But you did ask for our poll on Dragon

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I completely agree with this. The number one thing I would like to see is better color- better skin tones. I really only care about noise free high iso for high frame rates.

After better color I would like to see more dynamic range in the highlights (NOT with hdrx). 2 to 3 stops would be great.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

improved skin tones, true (hardware related) adjustable ISO, this could also include less senitivity.

Cheers, Ulf

 

[Uli Plank]

I don't know of any hardware (sensor?) related adjustable ISO. Are you talking about gain? That doesn't exist with RAW…

There are always NDs.

Plus, I really like skin tones with RC/RG3.

But some more sensitivity and DR? Great! HDRx is a clever solution, but has it's problems.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I don't know of any hardware (sensor?) related adjustable ISO. Are you talking about gain? That doesn't exist with RAW…

There are always NDs.

Plus, I really like skin tones with RC/RG3.

But some more sensitivity and DR? Great! HDRx is a clever solution, but has it's problems.

You could give selective analogue gain to the signal pre AD... Others do that. Not to say that it is a good idea as a general concept, but it can work.

Analogue gain to the signal and filtering before the light hits the sensor, can extend the DR and have an effect on highlight rolloff.

But it is nice to be in chharge of filtering (on set) and gaining in post, especially with the overhead the Scarlet/Epic has.

 

[Tim Morton]

Global shutter.

Craving to use smaller wattage lights on 120fps-plus shoots and not getting flicker.

Aside from that, I'm really excited to hear everything that has been confirmed so far for the Dragon upgrade.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

#1 - Awesome filmic skin tones under a variety of lighting conditinos - and better color in general
#2 - Less clipping in highlights
#3 - Less noise in shadows

What does this count as on the poll? The last option, I guess?



Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

same as me

 

[Michele Brandstetter]

global shutter woud be great

 

[Tim Morton]

global shutter woud be great

It's a tall order, but it's definitely no.1 on my list.

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

All of the above - better darks, better highlights (that's pretty much confirmed, 15+ stops and clean 2000 iso), wider & better colors and global shutter / integrated tessive filter / electronic nds. Let Dragon deliver the fattest richest digital negative possible. I know you can do it, Red.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

I've never had a problem with too little light, but I've had severe problems with magenta highlights! More highlight sensitivity and a more filmic "ALEXA"-like highlight roll-off would be nice...

 

[Joachim Hoge]

In addition I would love to get the high frame rates without the crop factor.

 

[Detlev Eller]

...
But still the ability to shape light was and is a huge part of what I consider photography. Not the ability to do stuff without light.

... hmmm ...

... wether one is using one or twenty bulbs around a subject ...
or placing such in a chosen place to reflect available light ...
or even just observe and capture, the magic of the sun ...

... all valid approaches to photography, from where i look ...

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

But still the ability to shape light was and is a huge part of what I consider photography. Not the ability to do stuff without light.

What??? That would make it necessary to learn those dreaded light setups, and master light. It's so much more convenient to be able to do the look in post with the raw format. Even if the set is completely dark. I own a Red camera, therefore I'm a DoP.

Jokes aside.

It's quite obvious that the primary concern of the new Dragon sensor should be highlight roll-off and highlight latitude.

Btw. just found this quote by Deakins on his forum about some Epic shots in Skyfall:
"The Flying Cam worked quite well for the shots we needed. My one disappointment being that we were forced to use the Red camera because of weight considerations. I am quite aware of the clipping on the few shots that are in the film."

They shot at 400 ISO, but still, a lot of DoP's I know choose film or Alexa because of high-light performance. And it was also the first problem I encountered with Scarlet & Epic.

 

[Scott Brown]

Fix the fan noise problems so we can stop apologising to clients every time we use our Epic!

Better audio - the camera deserves better, show us sound sound love ) It's an easy fix and will stop dead the audio community moaning about RED.

Ability to record Pro Res HQ in camera without add on modules - 1080p + 4K if possible?

Lower media prices

Better low light capability

I'm actually very very happy with the picture quality we already get from Epic, the above to me should be fixed as a priority.

Scott

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Over 60% of respondents want even more low-light sensitivity??? Do you all shoot in coal mines at midnight? Do you somehow think lighting is just for enough exposure, rather than painting the scene???

Maybe you just enjoy selecting, cleaning, and inserting giant ND filters.

One more point; resolution is not the holy grail. Dynamic range is.

OK, opinions vary and that's why they have so many flavors at the ice cream store, but Red has only one flavor (sensor "ISO").

Please, why do we need higher ISO??? 800 is a pretty good compromise.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

I would love a higher ISO, if I could have built in ND filters. That's the core problem (aside from fan noise) for most of us that shoot documentary style projects.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

... hmmm ...

... wether one is using one or twenty bulbs around a subject ...
or placing such in a chosen place to reflect available light ...
or even just observe and capture, the magic of the sun ...

... all valid approaches to photography, from where i look ...

Hahaha
Sure.

As long there are concious creative stuff going on.


But we know eachother better than that by now, don't we... ?

)

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

What??? That would make it necessary to learn those dreaded light setups, and master light. It's so much more convenient to be able to do the look in post with the raw format. Even if the set is completely dark. I own a Red camera, therefore I'm a DoP.

Jokes aside.

It's quite obvious that the primary concern of the new Dragon sensor should be highlight roll-off and highlight latitude.

Btw. just found this quote by Deakins on his forum about some Epic shots in Skyfall:
"The Flying Cam worked quite well for the shots we needed. My one disappointment being that we were forced to use the Red camera because of weight considerations. I am quite aware of the clipping on the few shots that are in the film."

They shot at 400 ISO, but still, a lot of DoP's I know choose film or Alexa because of high-light performance. And it was also the first problem I encountered with Scarlet & Epic.

Oh my God, he's disappointed in Red, what a surprise! Couldn't they just turn on HDRx (it was available at that time, right?), if it's just for the aerials? For the record, I've seen Alexa near clipping (aka going into white) more than once watching Skyfall. Of course, the low-con rolloff saved Alexa's ass in the end of a day and 2K projection system may have been poorly calibrated at that particular theater. HDRx might be a pain in the ass in many cases, but the aerials, come on. I've seen gorgeous aerial footage shot with HDRx +3 stops of highlight protection. But what do I know, since Roger's a jedi master DoP he knows best...