Dragon poll

[Bruce Allen]

#1 - Awesome filmic skin tones under a variety of lighting conditinos - and better color in general
#2 - Less clipping in highlights
#3 - Less noise in shadows

What does this count as on the poll? The last option, I guess?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jon Carr]

I'm fine with the low light abilities of the MX sensor so I would prefer more Highlight protection.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

#1 - Awesome filmic skin tones and better color in general
#2 - Greater latitude
#3 - Less noise

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Noise is corelated to lowlight capacity. I don't really have much noise in my images. Others have . It's a lot about understanding tools...
Yes +++ To greater latitude. To me latitude is more important than DR

Color is such a subjective thing and it is all in the Matrix. I have some high hopes here to BM, due to resolve... Silly, I guess, but still

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'm fine with the low light abilities of the MX sensor so I would prefer more Highlight protection.

I'd take three more stops in the top anyday.

Digital systems need to outperform fany single given filmstock, just because the sensor is irreplaceable, while a filmstock was replaceable. A single sensor must thus replace a lot of stocks. Dragon seems to get there.
Now give me those built in NDs and the color-filtering wheel...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I really want most of all, the ability of the dragon to match the MX. I have two cameras and would like to only upgrade one if the footage from each will co-mingle with the other. Eventually I would like to have both upgraded, but early on I might skip upgrading just one until I can have both done. I will almost always use both together so this is important to me.

HM...
Actually, If I was to upgrade, THAT would be the least of my concerns, but I DO see your point...

 

[Thomas Koch]

I just want 800 ISO without noise. I'd love 1600 without noise as well.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Forgot one!

#4 - no blackshading. Hopefully they dedicate a section of the sensor that is blocked off from light to do auto-blackshading, like other cams do. You may still have to run a pass to get rid of dead pixels... but not so many black shade passes as we have now.

Noise is corelated to lowlight capacity. I don't really have much noise in my images. Others have . It's a lot about understanding tools...
Yes +++ To greater latitude. To me latitude is more important than DR

Yes yes!

Color is such a subjective thing and it is all in the Matrix. I have some high hopes here to BM, due to resolve... Silly, I guess, but still

Well... it's like this:

1. the filters fail to perfectly capture red, green and blue and perfectly filter out the other wavelengths. They let a little bit of the other wavelengths in by mistake. They also have cutoff points that can be too hard or too soft - eg if you're getting pure orange wavelength... it's really tricky to get it so that it gets 1/4-blocked by the red filter and 3/4-blocked by the green filter...

2. you then design a matrix in the RAW decoding software to fix all of this and output nice colors (given the correct white balance etc)

3. it gets graded more to taste

But if #1 is not that pure, you need to do more extreme stuff in #2 and #3 stages. Or maybe #1 just doesn't capture the actual colors on set.

Check out these:

http://provideocoalition.com/index....you_need_to_know_about_green_and_blue_and_red

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/RED_mx_color_science_and_the_matrix/P3/

So... yes, I think there is a quantifiable issue or two with RED MX sensor - not just subjective - that can't be fully compensated for across the full spectral range without causing other issues - and I hope Dragon does better.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Scott Crawley]

Yes +++ To greater latitude. To me latitude is more important than DR

I know it's wrong but in my laziness I have been known to use the two terms interchangeably. This would be one of those times.

I just want 800 ISO without noise. I'd love 1600 without noise as well.

Then you want infra red or something that will enable you to see in the dark, because it doesn't matter what your ISO is, in the absence of light, noise is what you get. It is the same with film stocks, but ours is uglier. On the other hand we have relatively easy methods to eliminate it.

 

[Jon Carr]

I just want 800 ISO without noise. I'd love 1600 without noise as well.

Usually 800-1280 works best with me. 1600 is when it starts to get noisy. Are you looking at your raw and making sure it's enough to work with first?

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Dynamic Range.. thats all i care about..

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Dynamic Range.. thats all i care about..

Sure... I am just not indifferent to where it falls.
And when that is established, latitude beats measurable DR any given day...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Check out these:

http://provideocoalition.com/index....you_need_to_know_about_green_and_blue_and_red

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/RED_mx_color_science_and_the_matrix/P3/


So... yes, I think there is a quantifiable issue or two with RED MX sensor - not just subjective - that can't be fully compensated for across the full spectral range without causing other issues - and I hope Dragon does better.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

The build 20/21 channel "loaning" was a shortlived not-so-good idea.

B30 has, to me, been where tha RED matured and found its way colorwise

 

[Alexander Alexandrov]

anamorphic sensor height

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

" I want my 2/3" Scarlet MX now! Dragon? WTF"

Isn't this now called Blackmagic 2.5K?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

" I want my 2/3" Scarlet MX now! Dragon? WTF"

Isn't this now called Blackmagic 2.5K?

The first rule about white elephants, is to not mention white elephants...

If you ever see a white elephant, pretend it is not there and look somewhere else. Do NOT encourage white elephants, or they may disbehave in a disruptive way

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

I want whatever reds super talented engineers come up with, as I'm confident it will be the
Best sensor available in the world - in also like Chris Barrett answer best

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

" I want my 2/3" Scarlet MX now! Dragon? WTF"

Isn't this now called Blackmagic 2.5K?

Have fun with that 2x crop factor on the sensor - where your 30 will be a 60mm a 50 a 100
No wonder it's 2.5K

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Have fun with that 2x crop factor on the sensor - where your 30 will be a 60mm a 50 a 100
No wonder it's 2.5K

LOL...
Without going into a discussion about the unmentionable... We knew what the cropfactor was on the 2/3".... That was actually one of the selling points for the 2/3"...

And it is good that someone thinks that there are people who may be interested in something not S35/4k+.

Simply put, I like diversity and "right tool for the Job", being Scarlet 2/3"... or whatever...

I find the Canon approch a bit entertaining, as they don't really bring anything new to the table, same goes for JVC and Sony, but there are a couple of others out there following Jims advice on all but rez and sensorsize... Like there was allways room for 16 and 8 mm, I think that may apply to the current cameraworld, too

 

[Bruce Allen]

The build 20/21 channel "loaning" was a shortlived not-so-good idea.

Not just Build 20/21. Art Adams shot charts on Build 30, then checked out the results in Camera RGB mode - the channel crosstalk was still there. But when he switched to RedColor, it was gone.

I suspect this means the crosstalk is in the sensor but that RED is compensating for it with brilliant color science.

B30 has, to me, been where tha RED matured and found its way colorwise

Personally I speculate it is this way:

- on M and MX sensors, the blue channel also lets a little non-blue light by mistake or design (because the blue channel is the noisiest channel, I suspect maybe by design they let in some green light - eg sacrifice some color purity for less noise)

- RED has compensated for this with clever math. Over various builds and RedColor iterations, this math has evolved.

- Color fidelity is now better, but still not as good as if the blue channel were just super-pure to start with.

- with Dragon, all of the channels are less noisy. So if RED wanted to, they could design the blue channel to be very pure (though at the expense of some more noise)

So, for Dragon and future sensors, RED is going to make a very real design choice between:
- slightly less noise
and:
- slightly better color purity

This is the only reason I'm being so vocal. Like you, I think that low-light noise is not the biggest issue. If they optimize for that over all else, because everyone clamors for "LOW LIGHT! LOW LIGHT!" it'll be sad.

So I am just going to sit here and piss everyone off by saying "NICE COLORS! NICE COLORS!" to try to even things out

Well, actually, I will try to stop being rude. Sorry! But you did ask for our poll on Dragon

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Have fun with that 2x crop factor on the sensor - where your 30 will be a 60mm a 50 a 100
No wonder it's 2.5K

You know in wildlife shooting its typically a problem you are quite too far from the animals and birds. And the Dragon update to Epic will make my wide angles already wider. ;-)

Seriously speaking I won't be surprised if the white elephant -Gunleik, you posts are one of my favorites- becomes a popular camera. In my eyes it makes quite a lot more sense than the C50..., sorry, I mean the black elephant.