Dragon has screwed my workflow - where is my red rocket x?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The 2008 Mac Pro is definitely the biggest issue. 800MHz RAM hamstrings it terribly. It was a horrible bottleneck on that generation of the Xeon platform even in its day. The Quadro 4000 is a slow dog of a GPU as well. Although, due to the bottlenecks and that the system only has two PCIe 2.0 slots, the Mac Pro 3,1 has probably just run its course. Upgrading the GPU isn't going to do much here as the rest of the system is still going to hold you back. A 2011 Mac Mini (still the current model) is long in the tooth, but outperforms your Mac Pro in memory throughput by more than 3X and for tasks that need just a couple cores, it's probably the faster system overall. When your "workstation" is being overrun by a $700 appliance computer, you know it's time to move on.

Rocket-X delivery is unknown at this moment. I ordered two of them on day one of NAB with my Dragon upgrades. Have the Dragons, no sign of Rocket-X. I'm only going to take delivery of one of them now. And if RED takes much longer, I will probably just pass on them altogether. I think at this point, I'll take one, but if they don't ship by the time I get my hands on E5-V3 Xeon kit, then I'll probably pass on the Rocket.

I can work reasonably well in RC-X with 6KFF Dragon clips on my 2012 Macbook Pro. I wouldn't want to use that system on a fast turn-round transcode job by any means, but it's perfectly serviceable for most simple DIT / offload and on-site edit tasks. The new Mac Pro is one to 3 orders of magnitude better, depending on configuration. My better PC workstations chew right through Dragon footage, no Rocket-X, no problem.

My suggestion would be to upgrade computers first, then make a decision on the Rocket. You can kit out a pretty powerful system for less than a Rocket-X card. Mac or PC. I don't know about Gavin's hypothetical $9K for a quad-socket Xeon… I suppose it's possible with older generation parts and cutting a few corners. That's a lot of system to manage though and most software won't be able to take advantage. Considering the PC's I can build these days for under $3K, the Rocket cards lose a lot of appeal. Sometimes it's just better to add more systems that can jump in to help with everything, rather than a specific-purpose PCIe card.

I am still hopefull for (non real time) RED-ROCKET support for DRAGON... But with the ROCKET-X and GPU support I fear it will never happen... Sad to have such a useful piece of hardware made obselete with a sensor upgrade

I would say this is unlikely to happen. The better GPUs out there now are as good as, or faster than the Rocket and work with Dragon clips too… In many ways, I'd like to see Dragon support on the old Rocket too, but I'd also like to see RED concentrate their efforts where it's going to make the most impact.

 

[Nathaniel Kramer]

Jeff, thank you for your guidance. I really appreciate it! Could you suggest a machine and what to put into it? It really sounds like going to PC is inevitable.

 

[Michael McLaughlin]

inevitability makes me always think of

inevitability makes me always think of

Come to the PC matrix


www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5m1A7zoIcc

 

[jake blackstone]

Everyone has an opinion, so I'm going to express mine.
As some of you know, I upgraded my 4.1 Mac Pro to 5.1. The reasoning being, that nMacPro is not quite ready for prime-time. It is a wonderful and very powerful computer, that is showing great promise. But for me, right now, it's not quite there. That is why I decided to stick with my Mac Pro 5.1.
So now I'm running OSX 10.8.5 with multiple GPUs in the Cubix chasis and if I wanted to, I would have ho problem running RRX.
Also, I'm running Win7 under the Bootcamp and installing W7 under the Bootcamp couldn't be any easier, as all necessary drivers are included.
So, for my fast fiber drives, that are used under both Win and Mac I format them NTFS and I use Paragon for HFS on Win 7 to read and write to HFS. I absolutely would recommend NOT using Macdrive. It is known to horribly corrupt HFS drives. For enterprise and professional use I would only recommend Paragon on Windows.
As a side note, I found, that Resolve actually runs better under the Bootcamp, than on Mac. and finally, for the Resolve projects folder I specify the same location for both Mac and Win versions, so regardless of which one I use, the same project is always available to both versions. You can start grading on Windows and then if you need Prores delivery, just jump over the Mac and render there. I would recommend using Boot Champ for quick switch between OSes.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I absolutely would recommend NOT using Macdrive.

Actually, I've had good luck with MacDrive under Windows Vista and Windows 7. Once in awhile, it goes stupid and refuses to see the drives, but I've never experienced file corruption per se.

So now I'm running OSX 10.8.5 with multiple GPUs in the Cubix chasis and if I wanted to, I would have ho problem running RRX.

Heck, cost no object, I'd go with the Linux version of Resolve and get 8 GPUs and go wild. Let me check... nope, didn't win De Lotto, so no chance for that today.

But barring that, the nMacPro can still be useful in a small system doing 2K, and the added cost and complexity of the expansion chassis adds some uncertainty to the whole thing. When I've had to use the Cubix at a couple of LA post houses, occasionally they'd go stupid and require a couple of reboots to the head. No question, 90% of the time they were fine, just under ordinary Mac OSX.

 

[Marc Wielage]

For certain situations some people like less buttons to move from a to b. I think if you are a DP then it's quite a commitment what you are suggesting. Just like most things, I think driving a "fully featured color-correction program" and doing it well is kind of like everything else... you need those first + 10000 hours to do it well.

You're telling me? My joke is, it took me 10,000 hours to be vaguely adequate, another 10,000 hours to consider myself good, and then another 10,000 hours before I was really comfortable with clients. And that just covers the 1980s.

What does drive me crazy are DPs who believe that because they know what a good picture looks like, they can walk up to a color-correction program and know what knobs to hit. Very sad when that happens. I can mix to some degree, I can edit to some degree, but I'd much rather leave those tasks to people who are really expert at them. Color, I know very well.

On the other hand: there are geniuses like Ansel Adams who knew lighting, composition, cameras, lenses, and emulsions, but also knew all the intricacies of the darkroom. A lot of his great work was "done in post," and that was all part of his talent and his mystique.

 

[jake blackstone]

Heck, cost no object, I'd go with the Linux version of Resolve and get 8 GPUs and go wild. Let me check... nope, didn't win De Lotto, so no chance for that today.

Actually my point was the opposite. And the point was to NOT to spend more money on nMacPro 6.1 for less of the system and instead to stick for less of the money with much more versatile and at times more powerful system- MacPro 5.1
If money was no object I surely wouldn't be using Resolve...

 

[Florian Stadler]

If money was no object I surely wouldn't be using Resolve...

Why not? I have been using Resolve ever since it's been ported to the OSX platform (and in telecine sessions since 1998) and it has been getting better by the day. It started off at a great place to begin with. I don't understand your point.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Why not? I have been using Resolve ever since it's been ported to the OSX platform (and in telecine sessions since 1998) and it has been getting better by the day. It started off at a great place to begin with. I don't understand your point.

I work with Jake quite a bit and have watched him operate on several platforms. Resolve does many things well, but other systems provide dynamic solutions as well; sometimes with quicker results. That said, Resolve is a very capable option.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Actually, I've had good luck with MacDrive under Windows Vista and Windows 7. Once in awhile, it goes stupid and refuses to see the drives, but I've never experienced file corruption per se.

I've lost 3 files to Mac Drive. I've never had a problem with just drives sitting there and I use it for offloading Blackmagic Shuttle drives but I've found MacDrive to not be without risk when writing to a macDrive.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Interesting thread guys, yea I think a lot of us are in the same boat wondering what to do... Based on how much a high end trash can costs its really hard to justify it when for 7k or 8k I can build a pretty decent PC, one company offering lifetime warranties, another having super computer laptops, all of them being much cheaper and more powerful solutions compared to Apple offerings. My dream solution is rmbp and rocket in a pelican 1510 but who knows when I will actually have it in hand, so finding an interim solution for us all seems like a requirement but this resolve lite prores encoding wait is kind of a big deal too. its like I'm stuck between a dragon and a hard place lol

 

[Chris Kenny]

Can you get faster hardware than the new Mac Pro in the Windows world? Sure. Can you get faster hardware even at the same price? Yes, if you use consumer GPUs (which Resolve and RCX don't mind at all).

That said, we made a serious, roughly year-long go at using Windows as our primary platform for grading, and found it was generally a hassle — no direct ProRes export from Resolve, no entirely solid solution for dealing with Mac drives (and basically every single drive a client has ever handed us has been Mac formatted), re-linking issues associated with external drives sometimes switching drive letters at random, having to frequently reboot to eject drives because Windows insists they're in use when they're not, occasionally driver issues, longer boot times, no ability to run FCP 7/X on the grading system (which is very handy when conforming or using the suite to screen rough cuts), worse file management (no QuickLook, no ability to show folder sizes in list view, no labels/tags, no multi-column browser). Lots of little things that don't seem like they'd be that big a deal, but together add up to a fair bit of annoyance. Annoyance that we, at least, are willing to pay to avoid.

As of the latest Resolve update, a 12c/D700 Mac Pro (probably an 8c also) will do a 'half res good' decode of Dragon footage + at least a dozen nodes of correction in a 2K timeline in real time, with no Rocket. Rendering out to 4K with a full-res decode runs 19-20 fps. We're a fairly busy post facility, and this performance is just fine for our purposes.

I really don't know that there's that much to agonize over here anymore. When a Rocket was basically a requirement, the new Mac Pro's lack of PCIe slots made this awkward, but a Rocket is probably unnecessary for the vast majority of people working with Red footage now. So, basically, If you want a system that you can take out of the box, turn on, install a few apps on, and get predictable, reliable, and all-in-all pretty damn impressive performance, get a new Mac Pro. For bonus points, it's small enough to pack up and set up in a hotel room or even on set. If, on the other hand, you want maximum bang for your buck, build your own a Wintel machine with a couple Titans or whatever. These are both entirely viable solutions, the tradeoffs are pretty clear, and they're not that different from the tradeoffs that have existed between Mac/Wintel basically forever.

 

[Nathaniel Kramer]

Chris, have you used the new mp to run premier, after effects, and dragon footage? My pref would be to stay with Apple, but if it makes our post work slow then i will have to abandon ship

 

[Brian Merlen]

good points chris...its the little things that count sometimes when they add up

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

Chris, I'd also add that Mac Pro (as everything made by Apple) hold its value MUCH better than windows machines,
so much that in some instances at the end you spend the same as a windows machine...
if you calculate just the depreciation into account...and not the initial investment of course which will be higher.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Everyone has an opinion, so I'm going to express mine.
As some of you know, I upgraded my 4.1 Mac Pro to 5.1. The reasoning being, that nMacPro is not quite ready for prime-time. It is a wonderful and very powerful computer, that is showing great promise. But for me, right now, it's not quite there. That is why I decided to stick with my Mac Pro 5.1.
So now I'm running OSX 10.8.5 with multiple GPUs in the Cubix chasis and if I wanted to, I would have ho problem running RRX.
Also, I'm running Win7 under the Bootcamp and installing W7 under the Bootcamp couldn't be any easier, as all necessary drivers are included.
So, for my fast fiber drives, that are used under both Win and Mac I format them NTFS and I use Paragon for HFS on Win 7 to read and write to HFS. I absolutely would recommend NOT using Macdrive. It is known to horribly corrupt HFS drives. For enterprise and professional use I would only recommend Paragon on Windows.
As a side note, I found, that Resolve actually runs better under the Bootcamp, than on Mac. and finally, for the Resolve projects folder I specify the same location for both Mac and Win versions, so regardless of which one I use, the same project is always available to both versions. You can start grading on Windows and then if you need Prores delivery, just jump over the Mac and render there. I would recommend using Boot Champ for quick switch between OSes.

Thanks for the tip about Mac drive - i've never had problems, but I'll follow your advice rather than further push my luck and move to Paragon.

Agree that Bootcamp rocks the world - but all should be advised that only MacVidCards (not standard PC retail cards they will run at half speed communication) run at 2X bandwidth on the PC side, whereas any NVidia card will work at full speed on teh Mc side, MacVidcards flashed or not. It's strange that PC cards work better in Mac OS than in Bootcamp Windows, but that's how it is. So… You're getting faster render times/general speed in Windows Resolve than Mac?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Chris, I'd also add that Mac Pro (as everything made by Apple) hold its value MUCH better than windows machines,
so much that in some instances at the end you spend the same as a windows machine...
if you calculate just the depreciation into account...and not the initial investment of course which will be higher.

Mac Pros really do re-sell well. PCs are almost semi-disposable.

Again though, 5.1 Mac Pro with awesome GPU (even just one) is faster and better value than a trashcan - whether you believe me or not.

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

I'd like to see Dragon support on the old Rocket too, but I'd also like to see RED concentrate their efforts where it's going to make the most impact.

I would love to see this happen. Not being a tech person, what are the barriers to this?

 

[jake blackstone]

Why not? I have been using Resolve ever since it's been ported to the OSX platform (and in telecine sessions since 1998) and it has been getting better by the day. It started off at a great place to begin with. I don't understand your point.

The point is simple. If money is no object, Baselight, Nucoda, Lustre or even Mistika would be my preferred tools. If you ever try any of those instead of sticking with the lowest common denominator and cheapest, i.e. free- Resolve, you may be able to better understand my point.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Jeff, thank you for your guidance. I really appreciate it! Could you suggest a machine and what to put into it? It really sounds like going to PC is inevitable.

Here is my shopping list for our next "best bang for the buck" workstation

Dual Xeon, Dual Cuda GPU (2x4GB), 64GB RAM,
500GB SSD Raid, 30TB RAID5, uninterruptible power supply, BluRay burner, 27" monitor.

2 x 256GB INTENSO SSD SATA III Top (3812440)
10 x 3TB TOSHIBA DT01ACA Series (DT01ACA300)
8 x 4GB KINGSTON ECC ValueRAM DDR3-RAM (KVR16R11D8/4I)
1 x ALLNET ALL91500
1 x ASUS MB Z9PE-D8 WS (Int,2011,2P,DDR3) 90-MSVDY0-G0EAY00T
1 x BITFENIX Shinobi XL
1 x COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M2 850W (RS850-SPM2D3-EU)
1 x DELL UltraSharp U2713HM
2 x GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 770 WindForce OC 4 GB (GV-N770OC-4GD)
2 x INTEL Xeon E5-2630v2 Box (BX80635E52630V2)
1 x LG BH16NS40 Blu-Ray Brenner Bulk SATA Schwarz
2 x NOCTUA NH-D14 SE2011
1 x SHARKOON 5-Bay Raid Box

That's about 4642 Euros, including 19% VAT.

For Dragon material, I would use better GPU cards though.

And yeah, stay away from macDrive - it is slow and it really can mess up a system - we had a ton of trouble with it and lost 3 SSDs in 2 weeks, till we banned it from our workstations.
I use exFat on all external drives, and never had a problem swaping them between Mac and Win, also never lost a file.

If you really need a MacOS at some point in a pinch, you can always run it in no time on a virtual machine on any PC, with much less hassle (and often faster) than a Hackintosh.