Dragon cost and speculation for Scarlet

[Dustin Wilson]

I should also add that what Scarlet is today will be very competitive moving forward with the new cameras coming out. You still have 4K in reality.

This biggest concern about 4K cameras coming down the pipe is improved FPS and ISO performance which by NAB might be a reality.

Exactly. You have 4K in the palm of your hand guys. Don't forget that. No other company offers 4K Raw in camera, which is remarkable and what still sets Red apart. Even if new cameras come out with improved FPS and ISO at 4K, most won't be Raw and if they are, will most likely have a large recorder needed for it. Scarlet = 4k Raw in you hands, not on your shoulder with a recorder and cables everywhere.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I've accepted the low light draw backs. Dynamic range, and everything else on the MX sensor is great to me. I really just want a bump in frame rates. I think if they can offer the upgrade in camera it should be between 7-8 thousand. If your looking at a new camera...which defeats the original purpose I get it, but I'm hoping they'd have a Stage 2/Stage 3 type upgrade program to either upgrade to the new camera, the epic or whatever else. One where maybe you keep it, and maybe for early adopters? Where you get a deal on the full price of a new one. Maybe another where it's a trade in for a new body and some kind of discount.

The only reason I think it might be beyond the actual Scarlet body itself is because of this post by Jarred, just incase anyone missed it:
Question about when we might hear about an upgrade...

Wont be till closer to the end of the year.. For Dragon to drop into Scarlet takes alot of work.. alot of new boards to handle the increased data rate.

In regards to the new boards in Epics being upgraded, and a slight push back, and the possibility of pushing beyond the Scarlets capabilities....

You will know by the end of the year for sure. We will make sure Scarlet owners have some way to get to Dragon.. We just don't know what that looks like yet, or how much it will cost, and just how much of the Dragon's fire we can squeeze into the Scarlet infrastructure.. There is a point with Scarlet where you replace so many internal bits that a brain upgrade becomes a more economical ( for you ) path. But we don't know that yet...

Dragon is no joke.. it turned out to be one hell of a fire breathing menace that eats up every bit of pixel data you can throw at it, from the deep deep bottoms to the highest of the highs.

We have never seen anything like it before. Graeme and Rob definitely have their work cut out for them

I expect we'll get a hell of a deal no matter what it is. I'm ok with a new body approach if it's going to take us into a middle tier bracket, maybe like someone said an Epic-S type camera even separated from the Scarlet a bit. It's kind of exciting not really knowing what will happen. I'm sure we'll get more than we expect. I do expect to pay the price for it though. For me 6K is great for some time lapse purposes, and the ability to have it there for some Shooting, but I'm really looking to having 5K at maybe 48-60? Everything I see at 5K 96 I've fallen in love with.

 

[Timur Civan]

BTW - there seems to be an underlying assumption here that 6K means a bigger sensor. Do we know that to be true? Of course, there was the talk about Monstro sensors much earlier but I don't think I have seen Monstro and Dragon discussed in the same context. Is it possible that the 6K Dragon sensor will be an APS-H size like the current MXs. Or, maybe only slightly bigger at full frame 35mm?

Yes. Read the dragon thread.

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

This is an assumption largely based on my experience and that of some folk I know but let me explain some economics here: I bought the Scarlet by selling some gear, borrowing some cash, etc. I for one bought the Scarlet because I can't afford an Epic. So an upgrade costing $12K is out of reach, as according to my modest scale, it would cost the price of another Scarlet. Hey, I can have two cameras!! But let's go back a notch: For that price, I might as well sell the Scarlet, borrow some more here and there and buy an Epic! The same logic applies to the I/O module, in my view it is overpriced. Yes I know, it's outrageous what I'm saying, it's a feat of engineering, yada, yada, yada. Will I buy one? I don't know. I would probably buy a sensor upgrade instead...

But if the upgrade will be around $6K, then it may be something to consider. Different cameras are there because they are aimed at different market segments. And yes the internal circuitry of one camera may be different from the other, but the price of a Scarlet upgrade certainly shouldn't be higher than an Epic upgrade, it should be lower. Paraphrasing the rats in The Fragles "The Trash has Spoken!".

A

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

This is an assumption largely based on my experience and that of some folk I know but let me explain some economics here: I bought the Scarlet by selling some gear, borrowing some cash, etc. I for one bought the Scarlet because I can't afford an Epic. So an upgrade costing $12K is out of reach, as according to my modest scale, it would cost the price of another Scarlet. Hey, I can have two cameras!! But let's go back a notch: For that price, I might as well sell the Scarlet, borrow some more here and there and buy an Epic! The same logic applies to the I/O module, in my view it is overpriced. Yes I know, it's outrageous what I'm saying, it's a feat of engineering, yada, yada, yada. Will I buy one? I don't know. I would probably buy a sensor upgrade instead...

But if the upgrade will be around $6K, then it may be something to consider. Different cameras are there because they are aimed at different market segments. And yes the internal circuitry of one camera may be different from the other, but the price of a Scarlet upgrade certainly shouldn't be higher than an Epic upgrade, it should be lower. Paraphrasing the rats in The Fragles "The Trash has Spoken!".

A

Antonio,

I'm sure more people than you realize are there with you. Not everyone here has a ton of cash to throw at upgrades and extra gear. I've worked for everything I've gotten. I've made sacrifices as well. But it's been an investment in experiences, new work, clients and other things as well. Owning a RED is what you make of it. Sure it's a tool, but it really has been different for me than other cameras I've owned.

In regards to cost, no one wants it to be extremely expensive, or cost more than the original body itself. Unfortunately this likely won't hold true for those who just snagged the BT models. I'd hope it's that inexpensive, and gladly welcome it. To me it sounds like you really need to weight what is the best decision for you going forward. Will having two cameras benefit you? Or are you looking for more features? That is how I'd decide where the cost justifies itself as to which way you decide to go, whether it's upgrading to Epic, Scarlet Dragon or owning two Scarlets.

For example, myself, owning two cameras would be lovely, but I can't justify it. I sometimes have periods of work where I need more than one, but it just isn't regular enough to own two Red's but rather owning a second lower tier camera I can separate the work I take with, without gouging other Red Users by lowering the rate of a rental for the rest of the market. Shooting wise though, it makes more sense for me to either upgrade the sensor or get an Epic. I'm sure it's different for everyone.

The cost is higher for a somewhat understandable reason. Different components, and more of them have to be replaced. But I hear you, it doesn't really make sense to me having to spend more for less of an actual upgrade itself. By percentage when you look at the less drastic jump in features, it seems it should be cheaper. I understand both sides, and rightly so I'm willing to pay to get the Scarlet upgraded further if it gets to a point where I see it being usable to the work I'm doing.

 

[Mike Garrick]

This topic has been hashed & re-hashed......yeh way too much smokin going on.

IMO the way to look at this whole issue is consider that with the upgrade there will be next year or so 2 standards of Scarlet .....
1) Current MX Scarlet

2) Dragon (Super) Scarlet .

Both can shoot superb images both give you raw. Only one will give you what Epic has now 5K (at least & without the higher frame rates ). So do you want what Epic has now for about (10?) K more ? If you do, thats about 20K less than current Epic & about 26K less than dragon Epic prices!

What's going to be your answer?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

For anyone who was wondering, as I was, about the sensor size for Dragon - this is Jarred's post from 8-10-12:

"...10% larger both ways is a good ballpark... 30.7mm x 15.8mm"

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If I'm spending $12k I would expect 30p 6k.

 

[PatrickFaith]

With the cinema glass i'm currently planning on getting, I think I will be shooting at 5.4k maximum with the dragon(i hope they will have that mode). I also really like shooting at 4:3, so that won't be as bad on bit rate (i'm assuming scarlet will eventually get that mode, i.e. max sensor height but width is 4:3 of that). I've perty much decided on just getting glass that will fit the current 5k sensor. If the dragon had 1.5 stops more on the dark side and 2.5 stops on the high's, that would in itself make it totally worth upgrading for me(this like uber upgrades all my glass without me doing anything, how cool is that). The minimum "pixel's" i need for dragon scarlet would be 4.5k at 24p, i'd like more, but that is the rock bottom requirement. Another "requirement" is all my current attachments work with the dragon, such as my side handle and touchpad. With my second scarlet i recently received, i was able to use it without buying anything else(aside from redarmor), with the components i had on hand with my first scarlet (I'm finding all the components I have for my scarlet are way over my scarlet brain cost).

To me this is a fun thread, I'm not going to worry about anything till September 2013, hopefully it helps RED get a range of what different people are looking for, as they do all sorts of cost/component analysis for the scarlet upgrade.

 

[Bob Gundu]

It's not going to be the 6K feature that going to set Dragon apart from the competition. Just my hunch.

 

[Karl Krings]

Red must create a bigger gap between them an their competitors....to lead the game in this price segment they have to go : more higheres. more highframe. more highdynmamic. Hope things change again and again and they will blow us up with something biiiiiiig