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Robert Ruffo New
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Nice work making lemonade out of lemons!
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Dragon color: Art Adams looks at tungsten vs. daylight
- Thread starter Brett Harrison
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Nice work making lemonade out of lemons!
Ketch Rossi
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Daniel,
We each find ourselves in situations, but can't really never know how it really was if we weren't there, there was more to it then just having only 3 fixtures in a space that needed triple that, there was the fact that I lit up for those 3 and one to the right failed, hence the huge difference you see, the fact of the color grade done fast and last minute by a friend on a Beta system that crashed four times and did not export final color corrections made and I could go on and on, but I choose not to, fact is that the one light failed, do to the Bricks not been powerful enough, and that is why I now moved completely to BlueShape HD Batteries...
That shot can be Color graded in so many ways!
I respect your choices made in the situations that you have found yourself in, as so I did, and it is absolutely ok to like or not like ones work or choice made, but in an entire Film, short or long, looking at a single or particular frame makes no sense.
Lastly you can't really judge work done as experiments and for free, on situations such as it was this short for me, were I literally done everything, this are learning experiences to test the gear and myself, should be taken as such, yet their purpose was well served as all of the Sponsors were happy and I continue to gain favor of more of them in doing what I do, better will only get by continuing to test and shoot real life project, and this is what I do, I am not afraid of any results, this are NOT paid jobs, this are my experiments to gain Practical experience to take with me on the set of my first Feature Film.
Either way, this is what I always loved about this community that we once did have this type of very respectful and very thoughtful discussions about Cinematography, lighting, storytelling and more...
It did not matter if they were with me or adjacent me, I mena my Artistic believes and likes, it only matter having them as to force one to respond to questions and question oneself about their work and their choice made doing it.
I will always move forward, and learn form experiences good and bad, especially form the bad, I will never stop learning and never stop experimenting, but I will always be of free spirit and never follow any one, only follow my instinct and likes, learning form others yes, listening to others yes, but always do what and how I want.
And this is what I am doing, Experimenting on my own time, with people that are willing to do it with me, and learning something themselves, when time will come to make the big move, even if it might be a low budget movie, for me it will represent that moment in life i have done all that I have done for ti, and I'll do it my way.
Trying to bring to life a story in the way I like to do it, and let people like it or not, judge it there were they see the need to do so, and I'll be al hears, as far as they'll do so with respect, never offending not attacking me as an individual or an Artist, but simply making their opinions known and giving it in a humane and respectful manner.
I'll be there to take credit for the good and the bad, and ready never to defend myself not my choices but ready to answer any questions, to the why...
Again, please understand my convictions, and let me continue to experiment and work this way, following my believes, and do NOT take offense, as I respect greatly each and every one of you, as fellow Reduser and fellow Filmmaker, I read and listen to your comments, and they are greatly appreciated, but this of course can not mean that I should not continue to do what I am doing how I am doing it...
We each find ourselves in situations, but can't really never know how it really was if we weren't there, there was more to it then just having only 3 fixtures in a space that needed triple that, there was the fact that I lit up for those 3 and one to the right failed, hence the huge difference you see, the fact of the color grade done fast and last minute by a friend on a Beta system that crashed four times and did not export final color corrections made and I could go on and on, but I choose not to, fact is that the one light failed, do to the Bricks not been powerful enough, and that is why I now moved completely to BlueShape HD Batteries...
That shot can be Color graded in so many ways!
I respect your choices made in the situations that you have found yourself in, as so I did, and it is absolutely ok to like or not like ones work or choice made, but in an entire Film, short or long, looking at a single or particular frame makes no sense.
Lastly you can't really judge work done as experiments and for free, on situations such as it was this short for me, were I literally done everything, this are learning experiences to test the gear and myself, should be taken as such, yet their purpose was well served as all of the Sponsors were happy and I continue to gain favor of more of them in doing what I do, better will only get by continuing to test and shoot real life project, and this is what I do, I am not afraid of any results, this are NOT paid jobs, this are my experiments to gain Practical experience to take with me on the set of my first Feature Film.
Either way, this is what I always loved about this community that we once did have this type of very respectful and very thoughtful discussions about Cinematography, lighting, storytelling and more...
It did not matter if they were with me or adjacent me, I mena my Artistic believes and likes, it only matter having them as to force one to respond to questions and question oneself about their work and their choice made doing it.
I will always move forward, and learn form experiences good and bad, especially form the bad, I will never stop learning and never stop experimenting, but I will always be of free spirit and never follow any one, only follow my instinct and likes, learning form others yes, listening to others yes, but always do what and how I want.
And this is what I am doing, Experimenting on my own time, with people that are willing to do it with me, and learning something themselves, when time will come to make the big move, even if it might be a low budget movie, for me it will represent that moment in life i have done all that I have done for ti, and I'll do it my way.
Trying to bring to life a story in the way I like to do it, and let people like it or not, judge it there were they see the need to do so, and I'll be al hears, as far as they'll do so with respect, never offending not attacking me as an individual or an Artist, but simply making their opinions known and giving it in a humane and respectful manner.
I'll be there to take credit for the good and the bad, and ready never to defend myself not my choices but ready to answer any questions, to the why...
Again, please understand my convictions, and let me continue to experiment and work this way, following my believes, and do NOT take offense, as I respect greatly each and every one of you, as fellow Reduser and fellow Filmmaker, I read and listen to your comments, and they are greatly appreciated, but this of course can not mean that I should not continue to do what I am doing how I am doing it...
Mike P.
Well-known member
Any filtration there Daniel, or straight glass (what lenses)? Smooth flare, though I guess Dragon has something to do with that as well.
Daniel Stilling
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It was a GL version of the Sigma 18-35, wide open with a Classic Soft 1 and the appropriate ND, if any. I don't remember.
Nick Morrison
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WOW. Classic Soft 1. Would have thought it was a bit less (1/2 or 1/4). Very nicely done!
- Thread starter
- #46
Brett Harrison
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Thanks for the enlightening discussion guys.
Here's some interesting discussion over at LiftGammaGain
http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/color-issues-with-incandescent-vs-daylight.3809/
Including a spectral power distribution survey (linked) of modern sources (in French but it doesn't matter)
Here's some interesting discussion over at LiftGammaGain
http://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/color-issues-with-incandescent-vs-daylight.3809/
Including a spectral power distribution survey (linked) of modern sources (in French but it doesn't matter)
Marc Wielage
Well-known member
Here's what I said in my LGG comments...
The discussion is particularly interesting when you weigh the pros and cons of actually getting into the Raw metadata and changing the color temperature vs. just trying to change the overall white balance with the Log or Primary color controls.
This is something I've seen neophyte colorists struggle with, and believe me, it was a huge problem back in the day when DPs forgot to use 85 or 85A color temperature filters with film. In the early 1980s, I could tell just by "feel" that something was inherently wrong with the overall color, and I was stymied as to why even when technically I had balanced out the color channels -- what we used to call the "front end" of the Rank or whatever scanner was being used -- the picture still looked grainy and kind of contaminated-looking. Eventually, I realized that shooting daylight with tungsten film or incandescent interiors with daylight film didn't work; in each case, one layer of the film was either overloaded by or starved for light. No matter how hard you pound on the knobs in color correction, you're not going to be able to get there. LUTs can't do it, primaries can't do it, secondaries can't do it, even curves can't do it... not completely anyway. Nothing can overcome badly shot material.
It's particularly interesting with the Red camera, which is optimized for 5600 degree daylight. While you can sorta/kinda get tungsten material there with the regular knobs (aided by some curves and various tweaks), it's not a great look. This is a huge problem for people dealing with ProRes or DNxHD material sourced from camera raw files, where somebody hasn't gone in first and set the color temp and ISO correctly.
Art Adams' vectorscope photos of the original, adjusted, and filtered signals are very revealing:
Tungsten with added blue in color correction to compensate
Tungsten with 1/2 CTB ("color temp blue") filtration
This is a vexing problem when dealing with DPs who don't understand the need to get the camera metadata and/or filtration correctly set during actual photography, or -- even worse -- those who rely on mixed lighting to get the shot. Mixed lighting is fine if you're going for a fairly intense, whacked-out look, but god help you if you expect white whites, black blacks, accurate color, and clean skin tones. The red/yellow/magenta smearing will make you crazy in post, particularly if (for whatever reason) you can't get to the Raw files for final color correction.
Adams has very interesting comments to make about color accuracy in Alexa/Amira vs. Red, and I agree completely with his conclusions. Check out the piece of you get a chance.
The discussion is particularly interesting when you weigh the pros and cons of actually getting into the Raw metadata and changing the color temperature vs. just trying to change the overall white balance with the Log or Primary color controls.
This is something I've seen neophyte colorists struggle with, and believe me, it was a huge problem back in the day when DPs forgot to use 85 or 85A color temperature filters with film. In the early 1980s, I could tell just by "feel" that something was inherently wrong with the overall color, and I was stymied as to why even when technically I had balanced out the color channels -- what we used to call the "front end" of the Rank or whatever scanner was being used -- the picture still looked grainy and kind of contaminated-looking. Eventually, I realized that shooting daylight with tungsten film or incandescent interiors with daylight film didn't work; in each case, one layer of the film was either overloaded by or starved for light. No matter how hard you pound on the knobs in color correction, you're not going to be able to get there. LUTs can't do it, primaries can't do it, secondaries can't do it, even curves can't do it... not completely anyway. Nothing can overcome badly shot material.
It's particularly interesting with the Red camera, which is optimized for 5600 degree daylight. While you can sorta/kinda get tungsten material there with the regular knobs (aided by some curves and various tweaks), it's not a great look. This is a huge problem for people dealing with ProRes or DNxHD material sourced from camera raw files, where somebody hasn't gone in first and set the color temp and ISO correctly.
Art Adams' vectorscope photos of the original, adjusted, and filtered signals are very revealing:
Tungsten with added blue in color correction to compensate
Tungsten with 1/2 CTB ("color temp blue") filtration
This is a vexing problem when dealing with DPs who don't understand the need to get the camera metadata and/or filtration correctly set during actual photography, or -- even worse -- those who rely on mixed lighting to get the shot. Mixed lighting is fine if you're going for a fairly intense, whacked-out look, but god help you if you expect white whites, black blacks, accurate color, and clean skin tones. The red/yellow/magenta smearing will make you crazy in post, particularly if (for whatever reason) you can't get to the Raw files for final color correction.
Adams has very interesting comments to make about color accuracy in Alexa/Amira vs. Red, and I agree completely with his conclusions. Check out the piece of you get a chance.
