Dragon Calibration Idea, Can we have it ALL ?

[Adrian Weinbrecht]

Dear RedUsers

I've been thinking a lot about all the noise about the noise on the Red Dragons. We are currently in line to have our Reds upgraded to Dragon.

So here's my idea..........

1) It's very clear that Dragon with the Old Calibration created a Camera that worked very very well at High ISO's and low light.

2) It's very clear that the current Calibration shows an extraordinary dynamic Range and smoothness of tone, but you need to give the sensor plenty of light.

Sometimes we need a Camera that works in Low light situations, Sometimes we need the widest and Smoothest Dynamic range.

Would it be possible to be offered a choice of one of the above when we black shade ?

So at the point of Black Shading we are prompted with a choice of High ISO Performance or Widest Tonal Range. (Or some other description)

This way we could have the best of both worlds..............

To Graeme and the other amazing engineers at RED, Is this possible or even realistic ?

What does everyone else think ?

 

[Dustin Dooley]

Well that would be brilliant. I suspect you would need both OLPF versions in order for that to work but maybe you could find a middle ground. I wouldn't complain, but hardware has to play a significant roll in this and I beleive they tweeked the internal callibration to get there.

 

[Álex Montoya]

The thing is the new OLPF seems to take some light off the sensor, right?

 

[Adrian Weinbrecht]

Thinking further about this, would it be possible for RED to Calibrate the sensor in such a way that as we increase the ISO the image stays very clean but at the expense of Dynamic range?

This would be the exact opposite of what currently happens with the MX chip, We lose DR as we shoot at lower ISO's, so this would be a very easy thing to get used to...

Can someone at RED please comment ?

 

[Phil Holland]

Remember this isn't just the Calibration. It's Calibration plus the OLPF. That glass plays a role in sensitivity and what the sensor can see. There's a million variables going on here.

I think strongly that the focus on noise is a bit high, though I understand the extreme desire for clean footage at higher ISOs. I'm all for it if it's possible. The deep red noise in shadows at higher ISOs is being tackled.

So many people are frantically spinning around about this noise and more or less are missing out on what exactly you can do with Dragon. Which concerns me greatly.

For instance I'd rather have good color and tonal response "all the time" than perhaps an extra stop of "cleanliness". I also want an organic looking image. However, I'm not everybody though.

Also, most are ignoring why the original OLPF/Calibration changed on Dragon. Or at least one of the major reasons for the change. There was potential for a whole lot of shadow noise if it was given the opportunity to show up via various lighting conditions and subject matter. It was cleaner, but it could also be noisier and "weirder". IR reflection played a role here.

The new Calibration and OLPF provides a denser image with good color.

Curious to see where it's headed with the firmware update. I'm also pretty damn happy with the tool as it stands.

 

[Adrian Weinbrecht]

Hi Phil

Thanks, your views are always well informed and considered.

I think everyone was very excited by the noise levels on the first OLPF and yes it clearly had some issues, hence the new OLPF.

We've only been using our Reds for a bit over 20months and the more we use them the more we like them.

However, I was on a shoot recently working alongside another crew and they were using Sony F55's and whilst the picture isn't as organic as the Red, it looked incredibly clean at 2000iso. (Shockingly so) However the Data rate on the Sony when shooting Raw was Badly Shocking, this is where Red and Red code totally Rock.

I'm just trying to explore the possibilities, I appreciate fully the complexity of the Engineering task all of this stuff involves.

You mention in your post the importance of Good Colour and Tonal Response, I totally get that.

But would't it be great if there was some way that we could calibrate our cameras for a Bias in either direction to suit the needs of the circumstances ?

Understanding fully that each has some inherent compromise, a bit like at the moment on the MX if you want the widest tonal range you shoot at 800iso but this comes at the expense of a bit more noise.

Thanks again Phil for your comments

Remember this isn't just the Calibration. It's Calibration plus the OLPF. That glass plays a role in sensitivity and what the sensor can see. There's a million variables going on here.

I think strongly that the focus on noise is a bit high, though I understand the extreme desire for clean footage at higher ISOs. I'm all for it if it's possible. The deep red noise in shadows at higher ISOs is being tackled.

So many people are frantically spinning around about this noise and more or less are missing out on what exactly you can do with Dragon. Which concerns me greatly.

For instance I'd rather have good color and tonal response "all the time" than perhaps an extra stop of "cleanliness". I also want an organic looking image. However, I'm not everybody though.

Also, most are ignoring why the original OLPF/Calibration changed on Dragon. Or at least one of the major reasons for the change. There was potential for a whole lot of shadow noise if it was given the opportunity to show up via various lighting conditions and subject matter. It was cleaner, but it could also be noisier and "weirder". IR reflection played a role here.

The new Calibration and OLPF provides a denser image with good color.

Curious to see where it's headed with the firmware update. I'm also pretty damn happy with the tool as it stands.

 

[bevan goldswain]

I totally agree with Phil on this one.
I'll take good colour and tonal response at the expense of noise any day.

A noisy image is far less distracting than one where colour doesn't look good.

Anyways, I get that Adrian you were asking if we can having the best of both worlds with a flick of a switch - yes that would be nice, but seeing as it's a combination of hardware and software that might be a tough ask.

 

[Brian Merlen]

In camera noise reduction options might make some shooters happy... I think part of the problem is some people come from film backgrounds, some come from video..so the film guys expect processing and understand a colorist or DIT is needed...video guys probably don't like the processing part of the situation when they are used to getting it right in camera via sharpening and noise reduction. For video people some of reds greatest strengths (malleability, fat negatives) become a problem since they just want (sometimes) a sure fire way to just roll it and have it look "good enough". Red has been so successful there are so many people shooting it in so many various niche markets, its basically impossible to satisfy everyone at this point I believe. What looks like film grain to some looks bad to others... I just hope in the end people like Dragon no matter what options it has, and that they book it and rent it...

 

[Dustin Dooley]

Remember this isn't just the Calibration. It's Calibration plus the OLPF. That glass plays a role in sensitivity and what the sensor can see. There's a million variables going on here.

I think strongly that the focus on noise is a bit high, though I understand the extreme desire for clean footage at higher ISOs. I'm all for it if it's possible. The deep red noise in shadows at higher ISOs is being tackled.

So many people are frantically spinning around about this noise and more or less are missing out on what exactly you can do with Dragon. Which concerns me greatly.

For instance I'd rather have good color and tonal response "all the time" than perhaps an extra stop of "cleanliness". I also want an organic looking image. However, I'm not everybody though.

Also, most are ignoring why the original OLPF/Calibration changed on Dragon. Or at least one of the major reasons for the change. There was potential for a whole lot of shadow noise if it was given the opportunity to show up via various lighting conditions and subject matter. It was cleaner, but it could also be noisier and "weirder". IR reflection played a role here.

The new Calibration and OLPF provides a denser image with good color.

Curious to see where it's headed with the firmware update. I'm also pretty damn happy with the tool as it stands.

Barring the red noise issue that is getting fixed I haven't seen anything that is going to put me off of upgrading my Scarlet. I myself am guilty of zooming in 100% on a 1080 monitor with my nose an inch away from the screen and thinking that there was an issue with pretty much every camera I've owned. I was seriously disappointed in the XL2 ha ha, but then again it looked relatively good at the time if you kept your gain at -3 (no such thing as ISO with that bad boy).

Another issue is monitors. Looking at 6k material at 100% zoom on a 30 inch 1080 monitor is going to be way different than a 4k monitor of the same size. Even a 40mp image is going to look pretty crappy on a 1080 monitor zoomed in at 100% and any noise that is there is going to be much more pronounced. I started thinking about my TV as Netflix looks super clean from my couch, but if I get t inches from the screen I can see the pixels and it is complete mush.

I'm certainly not discounting anyone's opinion on the noise issue, but I am with you Phil, there is a lot more to it than that.

P.S. Sometimes I pixel peep my own eyballs and start seeing those floaty strings. I got so focused on them once that I thought something was wrong and went to the eye doctor. He assured me that it wasn't an issue and that my eysight was better than most which actually made the shedding cells that create the floaties easier to notice. As soon as I stopped looking for them I didn't notice them anymore.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I got those too Dustin...also some sort of gain/grain everywhere I look...and at night sometimes small orange dots, not sure what they are I used to think maybe its electrons or something that comes off lights, like embers falling off bulbs...? I wear glasses for long range stuff but it doesn't seem to do anything for the above things. The other night there was this strange optical illusion on my trash bag, like a reflection/ghosting that was there with AND without my glasses. I wish I had a camera on me (besides my phantom) cuz wanted to try to see if I could capture the illusion on something, but knew that the phantom wouldn't have enough light to even have a chance.

Anyway I am sure Red will try their best to work out solutions for everyone and I look forward to keeping the grain/gain in my head and not in the r3ds...

 

[David Battistella]

If this stuff was simple, I think many people would be doing it with their eyes closed.

It ain't simple.

There is an optical path, a sensors sensitivity, compression, de-bayering, post data extraction and many many factors in each part of the signal chain. We are mostly just customers who want it all without any sensitivity toward what kind of science, physics, sweat and brain power that goes into making this happen.

What people have been concerned about is being addressed.

I really do feel there are excellent strategies toward capturing what ever kind of image you want with a dragon sensor.

Is dragon a step backward? NO.
Is there room to improve. Yes, but when isn't there.

Since this is being addressed I think it's beating a dead horse until we see the release.

Its a bit more complicated than your everyday app upgrade on your mobile device.

I'm willing to wait it out, but I have yet to be disappointed in the meantime.

Battistella

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Has there been any comments from Red regarding timescale for the noise fix?

Jared seemed very confident about a quick turn around back when this surfaced. I`m sure they will deliver but silence has rarely left people feeling warm and fuzzi.

Silence = questions/discussion.

 

[David Battistella]

Why don't you just send him a pm and ask him?

With the all the discussion around this I should think that dumping a quick fix on people is not the best way forward.

We've seen the result of the internal testing. I imagine putting that into a build and coding it all takes some time to get into the FW, the compression, the sdk and REDcine X.

I mean, people are going to want to be able to use this in resolve, scratch, and a host of other apps, etc.

sometimes silence means there's not much to talk about. . But that never stopped anyone from speculation, especially on Reduser.

battistella

 

[Brian Merlen]

Very apt point about the SDK. Sure they can fix the issue in camera/redcine...but without a SDK solution for all the various other applications its not really a done deal. I am sure they are working their proverbial butts off to finish this bug, get rocket x optimized, and hd SDI ports working... Regardless of time frame I am sure in the end it will all be worth the wait

 

[Bohdan Klos]

Why don't you just send him a pm and ask him?

Why not try to phone him? This is a forum for discussion. The answer is of interest to everyone. Jarred post that they were quickly fixing the problem was made in public, the questions asking when that might bear fruit happen in public.

His answer will be in public