DR ..a good discussion!!

[Corey Robson]

You guys don't get it or you just don't want to. I have sensor smear in "normal/proper" image development, whatever, whatever... 800ISO, F/2.0, 23.98FPS, nice waveform, not even a super contrasty scene. Sensor smear bleeds in from bright sources in dark areas. Hell, doesn't even need to be a source, just needs to be bright enough (not even clipped). Now, either y'all don't wanna admit to something, or you truly don't have these issues and thus something is wrong with my sensor.

Same experience here, it's a frustrating problem. 2 weeks ago I had smear across an actor's face at 800ISO when there was only a dim strip light behind them, it was nowhere near clipping. Had to reframe the shot and live with it.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Now I can slightly see it in the 12800 example...

I think I've been bothered once with sensor smear (in 10 years shooting Red) but I've never seen it when shooting 800iso. Or only when it was heavily overloaded (strong bright) and with high iso (2000+).

 

[Patrick Tresch]

this example shows how Monstro is definitely better in low light than an ALev III.
Scaryly better.
3200 iso zeiss wide open .
The boy anticipated me on my tests ehehe

http://blog.cineground.com/2018/03/30/low-light-high-iso-tests/

[/url]IMG_1324 by luigi valtulini, su Flickr[/IMG]

[/url]IMG_1323 by luigi valtulini, su Flickr[/IMG]

Luigi you are killing me!

Pat

Ps: did I already say that I would love a S35mm cutout of the Monstro BEAST!?

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Only one time in the 6-7 years I've been working with RED, have I had CMOS smear be so noticeable that it caused us to not capture the shot we intended.

It was back in my 1st AC days and we were shooting a plane commercial. On a wide shot of the plane, the sun was getting lower and therefore bouncing off the wing of the plane, directly into the lens. That gave us CMOS smear that was noteicable even on a 7" touch screen out in bright daylight (@800 ISO I think).

However that was definitely an outlier I think. Direct sunlight off a perfectly reflective source, directly into the lens in a high contrast situation. How many time does that happen?

And if I remember correctly, our options were to wait for the sun to move, or repo the camera. And I believe the DP liked the feeling of the light, so we just repoed the camera. Not the end of the world for us luckily.

But I've never had the repeated experiences that other REDusers seem to have.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

According to most of you my sensor must be broken... I still don't buy it, the CMOS smear is there, I just don't think you're looking for it. And quite frankly if it's only on the RED sensor then you know the problem can be fixed, I just wish they would actually put effort into doing so and not pretending like the problem isn't there.

 

[Aaron Lochert]

According to most of you my sensor must be broken... I still don't buy it, the CMOS smear is there, I just don't think you're looking for it. And quite frankly if it's only on the RED sensor then you know the problem can be fixed, I just wish they would actually put effort into doing so and not pretending like the problem isn't there.

Can you share any personal examples?

 

[Gene Sung]

Hi Luigi,

Thanks for theses tests. If possible, can we see some regular, sunny outside day, high DR, side-by-side skin tone tests of Alexa (or Dragon) vs. Gemini? Like a face with a hot highlight going to shadow?

There’s been so much focus on he lowlight, but the regular daytime side-by-side is just as important, probably more so since most of us only shoot un-lit lowlight if we are desperate.

Thanks again

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Can you share any personal examples?

+1 I would love to see your example @ 800iso. Thanks for an R3D.
Pat

 

[luigivaltulini]

Hi Luigi,

Thanks for theses tests. If possible, can we see some regular, sunny outside day, high DR, side-by-side skin tone tests of Alexa (or Dragon) vs. Gemini? Like a face with a hot highlight going to shadow?

There’s been so much focus on he lowlight, but the regular daytime side-by-side is just as important, probably more so since most of us only shoot un-lit lowlight if we are desperate.

Thanks again

Hi, Gene,
I understand I'm waiting for the sun ehehe
However, I brought Monstro and Gemini with me on a set that we're shooting with Alexa, I have not yet put these 2 models into production because I want to see the pros and cons first.
I had on the set 3 DP, we have included both Gemini and Monstro for some shots, what I can tell you, but still to be confirmed, comparing with ALEXA that the dynamics of Gemini be very similar to Alexa, both in the highlights and shadows, obvious that in low light you have some advantages. Monstro has shown to have more dynamic range but moved, this I have yet to deepen or I'm missing something because of the greater size of the sensor. That is to say if Alexa starts having problems with the highlights at T4 on Monstro we are at T5.6 while with Gemini at T4.5 + -.
On the contrary if we go down Alexa has problems under 5 stops, for Monstro 6, and Gemini 5 standard mode. But Monstro has even less noise.
For the color aspect to have an optimal condition before giving a judgment.
Anyway, as soon as I have a good external condition, I have to try starting from a medium gray.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Man monstro seems pretty amazing. But then again how often do you need more dynamic range than Alexa all at once. So basically monstro has the same highlights as dragon, Gemini has a bit more, but then gemini has similar to Alexa but can gain 2 stops on the low end trading 2 on the top whereas monstro has 1-2 more overall that are always there without having to bake in the lost highlights...

The fact that monstro can basically deliver gemini standard plus low light for around 2 stops more DR than gemini/alexa while also resolving about 4x more is pretty incredible. It does make me wonder if there will one day be a point of diminishing returns seen in sensor performance.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Man monstro seems pretty amazing. But then again how often do you need more dynamic range than Alexa all at once. So basically monstro has the same highlights as dragon, Gemini has a bit more, but then gemini has similar to Alexa but can gain 2 stops on the low end trading 2 on the top whereas monstro has 1-2 more overall that are always there without having to bake in the lost highlights...

The fact that monstro can basically deliver gemini standard plus low light for around 2 stops more DR than gemini/alexa while also resolving about 4x more is pretty incredible. It does make me wonder if there will one day be a point of diminishing returns seen in sensor performance.

Yes Noah, Monstro is something incredible, even the LT prores are crazy eheheh. However good times await us eheh
However, ALexa has the best highlights, but I respect the lens aperture. This would bring benefits only in an external condition where you are devoid of ND and is not controlled and sincerely you are desperate.:emote_headwall:
But what I see is particular, I try to explain, Monstro and Gemini when the highlights are clipped white remains white and even when trying to recover is still white, while on ALEXA in case of clipping and try to recover the white becomes yellow . Clearly they are all extreme situations...... I put you 2 frames under test to notice what I say Same lens aperture .

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nirg531k1u8tkuy/highlight.zip?dl=0

 

[rand thompson]

Monstor Highlight

[/url]Untitled_1.1.16++4 by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]


Alexa Highlight

[/url]Arri highlight_1.1.1+42 by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Is it possible to have a rolling shutter test of Gemini/Monstro/Dragon (set on the same tripod would be great)?

All in S35mm window.

Pat

 

[luigivaltulini]

Monstor Highlight

[/url]Untitled_1.1.16++4 by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]


Alexa Highlight

[/url]Arri highlight_1.1.1+42 by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]

thanks Rand,
This example be Gemini vs ALexa.
As I said the high lights of gemini is same ALexa, very close.
What you can notice that ALexa become yellow, so as I said I prefer both Gemini and Monstro where the highlights are purer.

Rand please post this too:

Monstro:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2p6ehjtbfar74lk/A003_C006_0414ON.0000000F.R3D?dl=0

 

[luigivaltulini]

Is it possible to have a rolling shutter test of Gemini/Monstro/Dragon (set on the same tripod would be great)?

All in S35mm window.

Pat

Ciao Pat,
as soon as I can do this.
Sorry friend but I have to find free time

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,


Here you go. I did my best but those highlight are long gone. But I will continue to try to find a different approach to solve the problem.

[/url]Highclip by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,


Here is Attempt 2

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,

The Answer to this is in the blue channel. Your original clip used 5600K try 3104K and work from there.

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,

Blue channel graded in different app to not change blue dominance in app it was originally created in. Still funky looking blue in image, I will continue to try later.

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,

The "Camalign" looks like shit but I was mainly concerned now with highlight recovery.