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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DR ..a good discussion!!

luigivaltulini said:
ehehe yes I'm waiting for the sun with the spring but it seems to delay eheh:crazy:
Yes, your thought is correct.
Light is and remains the very important thing in our work.
But you know I've always worked with DP young or older people, where for them it is very important to give a photographic impression and then stand out for this, giving a value to their project.
By now they know both the weaknesses of ALexa and RED, the same goes for my colorist that I have never seen or heard complaining but with one and only purpose to make the customer happy. This is professionalism.
These are just tests with relative importance.
To return to the speech, Gemini has a boost of 2 stops of light, where they can be used to use Zoom with a slow aperture, or to give more depth of field without increasing light on the set, etc. etc. this with a click on the touch screen, for me this is a nice goal. Obviously you do not have a resolution of 8k and therefore limited in this. But you have smaller and more manageable files. Difficult as a choice and certainly remains a personal choice or in the production area.
Monstro for how I can see him in these hours is much more particular with more nuances and refinement in the image, what to have Alexa, but with a different character, as right it is. Only fear on Monstro is the factor 8k difficult to manage in post-production in real time be quite heavy ...
But we will see ehehhe
Click to expand...

Yes more sun please so we can see how Gemini clips in highlights :-)

But you are absolutely right. It all comes down to personal preferences and what you know works best for that specific project. At the end, cameras are just tools at our disposal. One or the other tool surely makes it easier for you to get the job done. But with your craft and a great team behind you (colorist incl.), you will get there.

Regarding Monstro, it surely surpasses Alexa. However, after having talked with some rental houses here in Switzerland, I was told that it won‘t change much. People still want Arri.

Time will tell .... I hope in favor for Red ...
 
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Great to see all these images, keep them coming!
I think Monstro is definetly the best sensor out there but it has a few limitations:
- not all lenses work. I'm really interested in Canon 50-1000 but it doesn't work so good on Monstro as I understand. Apparently better with the built in extender
- expensive!
- Still "only" 60 fps using the full sensor size.

Otherwise colors, detail, noise seems fantastic.
Imagine Monstro with the Dual ISO sensitivity!!

/Andreas
 
Thai Christen said:
Yes more sun please so we can see how Gemini clips in highlights :-)

But you are absolutely right. It all comes down to personal preferences and what you know works best for that specific project. At the end, cameras are just tools at our disposal. One or the other tool surely makes it easier for you to get the job done. But with your craft and a great team behind you (colorist incl.), you will get there.

Regarding Monstro, it surely surpasses Alexa. However, after having talked with some rental houses here in Switzerland, I was told that it won‘t change much. People still want Arri.

Time will tell .... I hope in favor for Red ...
Click to expand...

Yes, it will not change much in the medium term.
But the tendency is to go towards smaller sized cameras, ALexa mini has sold a lot for this and big machine bodies are only used on large productions. In fact I'm thinking of selling my big now no one wants anymore, comes out much more Alexa mini.
I do not know, it's a difficult speech, what I know for sure now is that Red with Gemini can take a slice of the market thanks to its double nativity, while for Monstro it will be difficult to understand who wants to use it in a market with less and less money, it will be a movie camera dedicated to big productions like with Alexa LF.
Having both brands I do not pose the problem, but I will always love a Red camera more than anything else. But that's right so everyone has their own preferences.
Something that I would like to see again , the integrated ND and a 4k 4444 proress, maybe it will come with the new body DMSC3.
 
AndreasOberg said:
Great to see all these images, keep them coming!
I think Monstro is definetly the best sensor out there but it has a few limitations:
- not all lenses work. I'm really interested in Canon 50-1000 but it doesn't work so good on Monstro as I understand. Apparently better with the built in extender
- expensive!
- Still "only" 60 fps using the full sensor size.

Otherwise colors, detail, noise seems fantastic.
Imagine Monstro with the Dual ISO sensitivity!!

/Andreas
Click to expand...

Yes Andy correct,
ehehe yes the lenses is a finger in the ass ehehe
In fact I ordered the Sigma, xeen and maybe Tokina, otherwise I can not use the whole sensor.
And yes, Monstro is the KING.
And fuck it, if Red came out with a dual iso firmware for Monstro would be something indescribable.
I know I like to dream hehehe;)
 
Thanks for the test frames Luigi.

Here's a comparison crop between the Monstro @ 8K and the Gemini @ 5K in Lowlight Mode -



I think it shows the extra sharpness/resolution and highlight retention of the Monstro compared to the Gemini, when the field of view is the same and the Monstro stays at 8K.

The Monstro does look more noisy and loses a lot of it's sharpness advantage over the Gemini though when the 5K field of view is achieved by cropping into the 8K sensor.
 
Les Hillis said:
Thanks for the test frames Luigi.

Here's a comparison crop between the Monstro @ 8K and the Gemini @ 5K in Lowlight Mode -



I think it shows the extra sharpness/resolution and highlight retention of the Monstro compared to the Gemini, when the field of view is the same and the Monstro stays at 8K.

The Monstro does look more noisy and loses a lot of it's sharpness advantage over the Gemini though when the 5K field of view is achieved by cropping into the 8K sensor.
Click to expand...

Monstro does clip later and has less shadows details in this shot. This could also mean that Monstro is a bit underexposed or has another (lower) native iso. I don't understand do you show us both cameras at 5k cut out?

PS: I'm still hoping for a S35mm Monstro cut out sensor for MG Weapon.
 
luigivaltulini said:
Yes, it will not change much in the medium term.
But the tendency is to go towards smaller sized cameras, ALexa mini has sold a lot for this and big machine bodies are only used on large productions. In fact I'm thinking of selling my big now no one wants anymore, comes out much more Alexa mini.
I do not know, it's a difficult speech, what I know for sure now is that Red with Gemini can take a slice of the market thanks to its double nativity, while for Monstro it will be difficult to understand who wants to use it in a market with less and less money, it will be a movie camera dedicated to big productions like with Alexa LF.
Having both brands I do not pose the problem, but I will always love a Red camera more than anything else. But that's right so everyone has their own preferences.
Something that I would like to see again , the integrated ND and a 4k 4444 proress, maybe it will come with the new body DMSC3.
Click to expand...
I see it quite pragmatical:
- big rental houses have no other choice but upgrade to Arri LF and Monstro (and Sony Venice). At the same time they probably dump their older Alexa big cameras
- until there is an Arri LF Mini, the Arri Mini will still going strong and continue its market dominance over Red
- top name DPs will chose their camera of preference - which again will mostly be Arri.
- then there is the crowded and saturated (higher end) market of owner operator. And here Red clearly has its dominance. Gemini is currently the hottest camera in Reds lineup. But wait until ScarletW, Dragon and Helium owners made their up/downgrade to Gemini. Then the price war will start with everyone undercutting in price. We have seen this with Epic and Scarlet. Same game. So for rental houses, Gemini won‘t be as profitable long term. Unless they get their Gemini much ahead of the market and can recoup their investments quickly. Just my guess.
- then there will be the next hot camera in town. Maybe Monstro 6K dual ISO in Dsmc3 body with integrated NDs and user swapable sensor? My dream :-)

Maybe I am just totally wrong and it is all rubbish what I am saying.


PS: for shoulder work, I prefer bigger cameras. Just feels better. But thats me.
 
Thai Christen said:
I see it quite pragmatical:
- big rental houses have no other choice but upgrade to Arri LF and Monstro (and Sony Venice). At the same time they probably dump their older Alexa big cameras
- until there is an Arri LF Mini, the Arri Mini will still going strong and continue its market dominance over Red
- top name DPs will chose their camera of preference - which again will mostly be Arri.
- then there is the crowded and saturated (higher end) market of owner operator. And here Red clearly has its dominance. Gemini is currently the hottest camera in Reds lineup. But wait until ScarletW, Dragon and Helium owners made their up/downgrade to Gemini. Then the price war will start with everyone undercutting in price. We have seen this with Epic and Scarlet. Same game. So for rental houses, Gemini won‘t be as profitable long term. Unless they get their Gemini much ahead of the market and can recoup their investments quickly. Just my guess.
- then there will be the next hot camera in town. Maybe Monstro 6K dual ISO in Dsmc3 body with integrated NDs and user swapable sensor? My dream :-)

Maybe I am just totally wrong and it is all rubbish what I am saying.


PS: for shoulder work, I prefer bigger cameras. Just feels better. But thats me.
Click to expand...
with this ideology, if the scarlet-w or the epic-w helium is doing your business well, it might not be worth it to make the jump to Gemini if the focus is return on investment through rentals specifically. I do think however if you have the funds, and can make it work, the upgrade is still worth it to the owner operator model.

This being said, I am still going with scarlet-w as my first RED cam.
 
Here are the same frames but with a better overall luminance match between them, based on a histogram reading of each -



And darkened back down -



The slightly different colour rendering, and contrast due to comparative levels of detail, could also be playing a part in the perceived differences.

Edit - Patrick, both images shown here are 'center-crops', one from a full 5K Gemini frame, and the other from a full 8K Monstro frame that was shot so as to have the same field-of-view as the Gemini 5K frame. I haven't shown a 'center-crop' from the Monstro frame that used a straight 5K sensor crop to achieve the same FOV as the full Gemini 5K frame.
 
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Les, if we don't worry about having an equivalent FOV, and the full 5K and 8K images are downscaled to 4K, would Monstro still have as much perceived noise as Gemini?
 
For anyone using Postimage.org, They are currently having some issues.


40501453485_a534ab3ea1_b.jpg
[/url]Screenshot (147) by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]


To Bring your images back.

1) go to "Edit" in the bottom right-hand side of your post with the image in it.

2) In the "embed" link, Change the " https://s31.postimg.org" in the link for your image to "https://s31.postimg.cc" and this will bring your image back
 
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Homer Dulu said:
Les, if we don't worry about having an equivalent FOV, and the full 5K and 8K images are downscaled to 4K, would Monstro still have as much perceived noise as Gemini?
Click to expand...

I don't know Homer.

Luigi's still-frame comparisons indicate to me down-scaling to 4K for noise-reduction doesn't really do much.

As far as perceived noise goes, it looks like both sensors will get similarly noisy with a similar amount of underexposure.



On the face of it, the Monstro appears more noisy, but there's also still more detail there.

I'd say there seem to be just as many pro's and cons between the sensors in other areas besides their comparative noise levels.



I think they're both awesome sensors, but I personally prefer the Monstro image-quality overall.
 
Viewed at 100%, this is an exact 1:1 crop of a 4K delivery. Gemini shots are 5K to 4K downsamples as well, but I didn't label that.

26526704717_39682358c9_o.png


Monstro sits right between Gemini Standard and Low Light modes, from what I'm seeing. And as Les mentioned, it doesn't seem that downscaling 8K to 4K is really giving us much more noise reduction benefit. Yes, the grain is smaller, and detail is shines through, but it is still as colorful. Of course, finer detail means it will handle noise reduction better and probably still be more detailed than Gemini. I'd be tempted to say that if you own a Monstro, there's no need to own a Gemini except as a B camera. But if you don't, Gemini is clearly a step above everything else.

I'd like to see some well lit stuff between Helium and Gemini. This thread is really giving me the urge to swap.
 
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Aaron Lochert said:
Viewed at 100%, this is an exact 1:1 crop of a 4K delivery. Gemini shots are 5K to 4K downsamples as well, but I didn't label that.

26526704717_39682358c9_o.png


Monstro sits right between Gemini Standard and Low Light modes, from what I'm seeing. And as Les mentioned, it doesn't seem that downscaling 8K to 4K is really giving us much more noise reduction benefit. Yes, the grain is smaller, and detail is shines through, but it is still as colorful.
Click to expand...

Gemini 3200iso LL wins
 
Les Hillis said:
I don't know Homer.

Luigi's still-frame comparisons indicate to me down-scaling to 4K for noise-reduction doesn't really do much.

As far as perceived noise goes, it looks like both sensors will get similarly noisy with a similar amount of underexposure.

On the face of it, the Monstro appears more noisy, but there's also still more detail there.

I'd say there seem to be just as many pro's and cons between the sensors in other areas besides their comparative noise levels.

I think they're both awesome sensors, but I personally prefer the Monstro image-quality overall.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Les! Either way, you aren't losing out by choosing either one.

Aaron Lochert said:
Viewed at 100%, this is an exact 1:1 crop of a 4K delivery. Gemini shots are 5K to 4K downsamples as well, but I didn't label that.

Monstro sits right between Gemini Standard and Low Light modes, from what I'm seeing. And as Les mentioned, it doesn't seem that downscaling 8K to 4K is really giving us much more noise reduction benefit. Yes, the grain is smaller, and detail is shines through, but it is still as colorful. Of course, finer detail means it will handle noise reduction better and probably still be more detailed than Gemini. I'd be tempted to say that if you own a Monstro, there's no need to own a Gemini except as a B camera. But if you don't, Gemini is clearly a step above everything else.

I'd like to see some well lit stuff between Helium and Gemini. This thread is really giving me the urge to swap.
Click to expand...

Ooohh yeah I can see that too. And urgh same here on the desire to swap! But $$$$$ haha.

And I'm still super happy with my Helium. It's still way more capable than my current talent level.
 
Misha Engel said:
Gemini 3200iso LL wins
Click to expand...

I put up the crop on our big 4k TVs and the Monstro looks better downscaled from 8k I think. Yes there is a tiny bit more noise in Monstro, but the Monstro image is a lot sharper in the tree and the windows. Also because of the higher resolution noise reduction will be more efficient.

/Andreas
 
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