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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DPs please check me on this...

Cyclotron said:
In my testing of shooting with the red under tungsten I found that if you use an 80D (2/3rds of a stop loss) instead of an 80A (2 stops) you get most of the noise improvement. I think that an 80A is an over correction because the sensors native balance is 5000K (I think) not daylight film stocks 5500K.


Makes sense.
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Stephen Williams said:
Has anybody tried a magenta filter with a Red one? it helps balance a Viper.
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That won't do anything, more or less, under typical situations. The Red, from what I understand via info from Team Red, has a daylight balanced sensor, meaning you won't need any secondary correction to get the camera to be balanced under daylight, which is what most digital cameras want to be without having to add a ton of filters. The reason a Viper, or Andromeda, use Magenta filters is to balance the camera to daylight, but after that point, you use traditional filters like 80A, etc...

It's a bit difficult to understand, but I hope that helps.
 
zak forrest said:
Build 16 might change this whole game..
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I can pretty confidently say it probably won't. Were dealing with a physics issue here, not a software issue. Perhaps they could noise reduce it... but I don't think thats the best answer to this issue. Maybe in the future they will offer a tungsten sensor option, as I think it might be more sensitive than using a daylight balanced sensor with full filtering on it.
 
I think your right Chris, even Jim said not to expect the world out of build 16.

It is indeed a physics issue, and it's very hard to explain to producers that it's the same on every camera, but every other camera has the filtration built in, and still convince them Red is a good way to go. To some it sounds like Red was cutting corners when the opposite is true, they are giving us back the film style freedom we had before the ENG mongoloids took over.

The DP with the 80a or 80b in his kit along with a hotmirror filter will be the one that gets call backs because the clients "love how amazing the colors were" or the producer loves how much time they saved with the colorist.
 
Greenscreen shot with daylight lights works like a charm, hardly to beat IMHO, eben 35mm wouldn't do it better.

Shooting tungsten is a bit unfortune due to its 5000K balanced sensor. Using a 80D will make it in a studio setup, on a moody location even a cut of "just" 2/3 of a stop is too much. 320 ASA is not a lot anyway.

I actually suppose (haven't testet yet) that RED will be on tungsten even less sensitive, meaning 320 daylight will end up approx. 250 ASA tungsten. Can anyone confirm?

Hans
 
Here's another thought guys...

This is a Bayer filtered camera, thus all the the channels are dependent on each other to create 4K res frames. By filtering you should, theoretically, benefit all the channels because you will have cleaner info to debayer with...
 
Cardmaverick said:
What do you mean? The image won't look blue when photographed.
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It might also be because the spectrum from HMI's and to a lesser degree Kino's, are not flat and are somewhat red deficient. These are the most common daylight sources when using lights, so its a bit of a problem. Tungsten lamps are quite remarkable in that emits equally well across most of the spectrum.

jb (likes an 812 in camera)
 
Mike Prevette said:
I think your right Chris, even Jim said not to expect the world out of build 16.

It is indeed a physics issue, and it's very hard to explain to producers that it's the same on every camera, but every other camera has the filtration built in, and still convince them Red is a good way to go. To some it sounds like Red was cutting corners when the opposite is true, they are giving us back the film style freedom we had before the ENG mongoloids took over.

The DP with the 80a or 80b in his kit along with a hotmirror filter will be the one that gets call backs because the clients "love how amazing the colors were" or the producer loves how much time they saved with the colorist.
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Mike have you heard that Abel is selling Tiffen filters that are ND and IR now? waiting on word as to weather they are glass or not.
Is it true that you only want the OUTSIDE ND to be IR, and not another one on the inside?

Also, the 80A filter you all speak of, this is a filter you would use in a daylight situation, correct?

Jay
 
I'm thinking an 80C filter, for Blue correction on tungsten source... 1 stop loss and will correct from 3300K to 5000K, a good compromise in my books.

The 80A would be used with the camera in a tungsten situation. If the camera is balanced at 5000K then daylight at 5600+ will already be pushing past the sensor native

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/support/h2/h2_filters.pdf
 
Thanks Dale for that Kodak filter manual ...

Thanks Dale for that Kodak filter manual ...

One of the things we have been bouncing around on here is "Tungsten light" but the range of Tungsten is from 1850K to 3400K depending on the tools (candles to Photofloods w/ reflectors) - so keep in mind you are going to have to adjust based on the Tungsten color you are fiddling with.

The original issue was getting correct skin tones and low light loss in detail. Does anybody have any recommendations for that specifically?

I use shake and a laptop to preview individual color channels from my source when I shoot. It also works as an uber contrast glass as you are only looking at the luminance values in the individual channels. I bet if you preview the red channel v/s the blue you will see substantial difference in luminance values Post some B+W screen shots of the separate channels under tungsten light with a low light situation ... and then start adding filters - 80A, 80B, 80C, 82 A, etc.. - any one game for that?

On another note - I am reviewing Blackmagic Designs HDLink Pro - and I think they should make a "RED" version - considering you don't use the HDSDI for anything other than monitoring, you can easily use this thing with its lookup tables to assuage the pesky producer moaning about the way the image looks... they sit in Video Village (VV) looking at a nice 24" monitor with HDSDI coming in over HDMI and feel very pleased with themselves for choosing to work with you - then you give the look up tables to the post geek for reference.

... or maybe Jim and crew can be convinced to incorporate a software LUT system for preview only... imagine having a library of LUTs with you that you can load up and send out to VV for preview? NIICE! And if they conformed to Kodak's Look Manager System or something similar? Ooo.... I'm getting schweaty...
 
prometheanfilms said:
One of the things we have been bouncing around on here is "Tungsten light" but the range of Tungsten is from 1850K to 3400K depending on the tools (candles to Photofloods w/ reflectors) - so keep in mind you are going to have to adjust based on the Tungsten color you are fiddling with.


... or maybe Jim and crew can be convinced to incorporate a software LUT system for preview only... imagine having a library of LUTs with you that you can load up and send out to VV for preview? NIICE! And if they conformed to Kodak's Look Manager System or something similar? Ooo.... I'm getting schweaty...
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Here here !

I just shot a bunch of greenscreen / Bluescreen tests, testing for exactly these differences. The first shot of the day was a macbeth chart. Gaffer brings out a 1k Pup. It meters something like 2900K. 1/4CTB later it's 3270.

Then i try to shoot it as 5600K. the same lamp after a FULL CTB was only 4700. It took full AND 1/2 CTB to get it close to 5600K.

Everyone assumes the colour temp of their lights is the same but there can be HUGE variations.

And daylight is an even bigger moving target. Anywhere from 2000 (sunset) all the way up to 12000.....higher even..depending on which part of the planet youre on...

and ewwww. Stay away from Kodak's look manager. It runs like a dog. Nice idea though....

jb
 
Just wanted to chime in here... we used an 80D on last week's "IMAX" greenscreen shoot and set the white balance to 5000K. Worked like a charm. All three channels in perfect balance under tungsten light and only a 2/3 stop compensation. We even had room to use a Polarizer most of the time.
I impulsively ran out 2 weeks ago and scooped up one each in 6x6 and 4x5, and I'm glad I did; it really made a difference.
Tungsten balanced sensor would be nice, but it just seems that all silicon-based imagers are really happier in the "daylight" range of Kelvin.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Yeah - I love REDCINE - great tool to have with the camera, but a "easy peasy lemon squeezy" LUT in the camera for preview would totally rock on the HDSDI out ... BTW, anybody have a "MTF" curve for the red yet?

Thanks!
 
To get a noise free tungsten shooting situation at 320 ASA or higher we may
have to look at LED ( daylight balanced) Kino & HMI replacing all tungsten fittings and sources when shooting RED digital.
A dalight balanced candle or fire situation would have to be lit up (tungsten) and filtered (80D) or it may still cause a problem with this kind of work.
Mezmo
 
Yes after intensive testing we also noticed a large amount of blue noise when shooting Tungsten. It's too bad... we are now in the process of buying a whole new set of lights that are day balanced....another hidden cost of owning a RED...:blush:
 
3xm said:
Yes after intensive testing we also noticed a large amount of blue noise when shooting Tungsten. It's too bad... we are now in the process of buying a whole new set of lights that are day balanced....another hidden cost of owning a RED...:blush:
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Or. IF you were worried about it. You can just get yourself an 80 A filter ?

same lights then.....

jb
 
Hi John
If you want to work at 320ASA or higher (low light situations) an 80A
won't help you need daylight balanced source.
Mezmo
 
John Brawley said:
Or. IF you were worried about it. You can just get yourself an 80 A filter ?

same lights then.....

jb
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But wouldn't an 80A loose some light in its effort to shift the balance of spectrum wavelength power? I.e., now, in addition to blue, red and green also start showing more noise. Unless, of course you increase the magnitude of lighting, the practicality of which will vary from set to set.
 
mezmo said:
Hi John
If you want to work at 320ASA or higher (low light situations) an 80A
won't help you need daylight balanced source.
Mezmo
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Yes. I know that. But it means you don't have to change your lights over to daylight balance. Which was the point.

I suspect that will be very expensive. Much more expensive than buying an 80A/C/D or even buying more or larger tungsten lights.

And tungsten lighting looks better.

jb
 
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