Doubts about shutter speeds...

[Ale Reynoso]

Hi:
This is my first post in this forum.
I work mainly as DoP/Camera operator and DIT. I have been in a couple of shooting with the RED ONE, but not as operator or tech.
I have a couple of doubts about the actual shutter speeds and indications:


“Normal mode, the Shutter Speed value used by the camera is fixed”

This means that if I set 1/50 but change the frame rate from 25 to 50 fps, the shutter speed will still be 1/50? (or that the camera actually will change the shutter from 180º to 360º?). What if I go above 50 fps?

So “RELATIVE” is analogous to a mechanical shutter.
25fsp, 180º = 1/50 S.
50 fps, 180º = 1/100 S
So will the indication of the shutter speed change from 1/50 to 1/100 if I change the frame rate from 25 to 50?

“Syncro: When operating in this mode, the Shutter Speed values may be proportionately reduced or extended to tune exposure time to a precise value. Range 10 – 90. Default 50. E.g. Setting Syncro to 53 with a 1/60th sec shutter is equal to 1/56.6 sec exposure time.”

Is this the same as “syncro scan” in a video camera (Sony labels this way the function) to (i.e.) shoot computer screens?
I can´t get the maths. Why “syncro” in 53 when 1/60 is 1/56.6?
Will be 1/60 when 10, 50 or 90?
Setting 1/60, “syncro” in 53…will actually indicate 1/56.6?

Thank you
Best regards
Alejandro

 

[jimhare]

Correct!

Relative let's the camera decide the correct shutter based on frame rate. If you select 1/50 for 25, if you go to 120FPS the shutter will suddenly be 1/240.

The current shutter speed is indicated so you can always see where the camera is placing it.

If you want to control it yourself, even if shooting off speed, use normal.

Some say not to trust it but it's always made the right decision in my shoots.

 

[Dominic Jones]

A bit more info...

Normal: This is essentially "video" mode, where the camera will change the shutter angle to match the absolute shutter time you have set, as you rightly guessed. If you go to a framerate that requires >360° (e.g. anything over 50fps for 1/50th), then the shutter speed indication will turn from white (onspeed) or yellow (varispeed) to Red. In this eventuality, the camera will shoot at 360° - i.e. the closest physically possible shutter time to that which you have selected.

Relative: This is essentially "film" mode, where you set a shutter angle (or base shutter speed - see below), and the camera will maintain the shutter angle throughout any framerate - so, if you were shooting 25fps @ 1/50th and changed your speed to 100fps, the shutter speed would be 1/200th, exactly as you'd expect from a 35mm camera.

Synchro: Yes, this is a "clear-scan" style option. I've never understood the maths either, I just dial it in by eye!

Display: There are also two options for how the shutter read-out is displayed - either in degrees or hundredths of a second. It has no impact on the operation of the camera (which I tend to find confusing!), so do bear that in mind - just because you're seeing degrees in the display does not necessarily mean that the camera is operating in relative mode, and vice-versa.

HTH,
Dom.

 

[Etienne Caron]

When doing Varispeed, you can use Relative and Normal mode... anyone did some tests between the two for varispeed ?

 

[Dominic Jones]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question??

Both modes operate in both on-speed and off-speed shooting, if that's what you mean? It's just a case of which you are more comfortable using from previous camera systems, really...

 

[Ale Reynoso]

"anything over 50fps for 1/50th), then the shutter speed indication will turn from white (onspeed) or yellow (varispeed) to Red. In this eventuality, the camera will shoot at 360°"

So if I set 1/50 in normal I´ll get 1/50 "white indication" up to 50 fps (360º).
But if I go beyond 50 fps ( upper limit for 1/50, at 360º): I will get "1/50" in "red indication"? or the actual shutter speed in red numbers? I.E. 100 fps. is 1/100 at 360º. Will the indication be 1/50 in red or 1/100 in red?

Thanks a lot for the answers!
Best regards

 

[Dominic Jones]

If you set the shutter to 1/50th in "normal" mode, and shoot a project with 25fps timebase, then:

At 25fps (non-varispeed) you will see 1/50th in white.
At off-speed framerates (varispeed enabled) up to 50fps you will see 1/50th in yellow.
At framerates higher than 50fps you will see the actual shutter speed (so 1/100th @ 100fps) in red.

Glad to be of help!
Dom.

 

[Ale Reynoso]

Thank you!!

 

[Dominic Jones]

No problem - btw, just realised I had a "moment" in my post above, and wrote framerate instead of shutter speed in the last example... Fixed now!

Cheers,
Dom.

 

[Mark Pugh]

"Relative" should be default

"Relative" should be default

I truly wish that the default setting was "Relative" rather than "Normal".
I've seen the camera reset, and framerates changed, with no-one noticing until post-production that they are stuck with 360% motion blur.
When changing frame rate in Relative mode, it's obvious that the exposure has changed, and it can be corrected accordingly. The change in motion artifacts are not visable at all, when shooting at, say 48 or 50 frame per second, because of the high refresh rate on the montior at that speed.

 

[Dominic Jones]

The problem there is that any number of people will want "normal" to be the default as they are used to video camera operation - you're never going to please everyone with default choices, so the only real solution is to be careful to check what mode you're in...

I'm going to go off on my favourite broken record rant here, but the problem really is not default settings but the fact that display in fractions of a second or degrees is not linked to mode of operation - so the camera can read out in degrees but be operating in "normal" mode and vice-versa. If the two were linked it would be obvious which mode you were in.

All of that said - to be fair, the shutter-speed (or angle) and framerate appear prominently in both the EVF and LCD displays, so whilst motion might not be apparent, you can tell what shutter angle you're at without too much difficulty...

I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight mate, it just seems to me that the problem is that no-one's bothered to check the settings properly before they they've shot (and after a reset, for that matter, when you should be checking all of your settings). With the greatest of will in the world, you can't really blame the kit for that, imo...

I tell you what'd be great though, and solve your problem whilst not leaving others out, would be the ability to compile your own version of the firmware (or bundle it with an .ini file or similar) to define your own defaults. I'd buy that for a dollar!

Cheers mate,
Hope you don't take any offense, I honestly don't mean any...

Dom.

 

[Ale Reynoso]

I tell you what'd be great though, and solve your problem whilst not leaving others out, would be the ability to compile your own version of the firmware (or bundle it with an .ini file or similar) to define your own defaults. I'd buy that for a dollar!

Cheers mate,
Hope you don't take any offense, I honestly don't mean any...

Dom.

That would be nice. And I agree with you and would be the best aproach (I always find myself tweaking the "user presets" in every camera i work with).
But in my opinion (if this matters in anyway) is that a camera oriented to film crews should have the defaults as close as a film camera: i.e. "relative" as shutter mode...
Again. I agree with you and the settings should be carefull inspected before shooting.
Best regards

 

[Yousuf Abbasi]

So, in essence:

"Normal" allows user-defined shutter SPEED,
"Relative" allows user-defined shutter ANGLE.

Hence, to maintain a 180-deg angle under various frame rates, use relative mode. To maintain a certain motion blur, use normal mode.

Yes?

 

[Stuart English]

Modes

Modes

So, in essence:

"Normal" allows user-defined shutter SPEED,
"Relative" allows user-defined shutter ANGLE.

Hence, to maintain a 180-deg angle under various frame rates, use relative mode. To maintain a certain motion blur, use normal mode.

Yes?

Correct...