Dolly questions

[Met Hrovat]

Oh,.. one more thing:
in the above video promo for the CamDolly it's showing the V2 (version2) and right now we are already producing V4 with bowl mount adopters, bazooka mounts and some other great new features.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

As far as Matthews track, how inhibiting is it to the actors? will they be able to walk down/between it? Or will it have to be out of their way?

Luke,

Yeah, walking across or through track can detract from an actors performance. They become unhappy when they trip guessing where their mark was.

Based on that question, perhaps you should consider a different approach. Have you heard about the MoVi?

Here are some links...


http://www.freeflysystems.com/pdf/moviFAQ-s.pdf

http://vimeo.com/63357898

http://vimeo.com/66698520

Never going to replace a dolly, a jib, a Steadicam or Technocrane. Just another option in the toolkit...

 

[Luke Kokinos]

I have heard of the Movi. Is there on in development that will support an R1?

-Luke

 

[Christopher Mills]

Movi and R1 .... depends

Movi and R1 .... depends

I have heard of the Movi. Is there on in development that will support an R1?

-Luke

The problem is less if the gyros can support the R1.. but can you support the combined rig?

to find out.. take your R1.. build it in minimum useable configuration.. add a 10 pound weight to it.. now hold it in front of your face for as long as you can..

I wasn't kidding about sanding pvc track joints .. it is not done with pro metal track..

For walk and talkss, how about dropping back to your original comfort level of handheld, but renting an easyrig to make your shooting better and easier?

then use a slider style dolly on tables, stands, and apple boxes to get horizontal moves

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

I have heard of the Movi. Is there on in development that will support an R1?

-Luke

There is one under development that would accommodate the REDOne. Named the M20. There is no indication of when it will be available.

As you probably surmised, the M10 will not work with the REDOne. The total carrying capacity of the M10 is 10 pounds - which is the weight of the REDOne body alone without a lens.
Other factors too...

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Never had to sand my PVC track. It's very precise and has to be for it to work as originally intended.

We are the only company in the world that makes curved PVC.

I don't see why I would use solid rubber track if it doesn't work on gravel, grass, rough surfaces. The very reason to use track is because it lets you shoot on these surfaces. I tested the solid rubber flex track on my gravel driveway and my lawn and it was absolutely unuseable.

Our PVC doesn't need spreaders when used with our dolly trucks, so actors don't have to worry about stepping over spreaders.

Our trucks have four wheels, and they not only swivel, but slide and glide from side to side on teflon impregnated UHMW plates. That's why it's such a smooth rig.

Sliders are nice if you only want to go a few feet, in a straight line. Sometimes that's all you want to do, and they're super portable and fast. But if you have to do a 30 foot walk and talk . . .

Doorway dollies with standard (non track) wheels are nice if the floor happens to be very smooth in the first place, like at a hospital or basketball court. But once you have a crack or bump in the floor, or a rough sidewalk, or gravel, sand, grass, etc then you have to lay track, which is to say, 90% of the time. So on a narrative shoot with dolly moves, you will have to lay track 90% of the time.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

QUOTE=Christopher Mills;1213899]The problem is less if the gyros can support the R1.. but can you support the combined rig?

to find out.. take your R1.. build it in minimum useable configuration.. add a 10 pound weight to it.. now hold it in front of your face for as long as you can.[/QUOTE]


reply:
The MoVi units are not designed to be used by holding it in front of your face.

Note: The M10 weighs in at just 3.4 lbs, not 10.

I wasn't kidding about sanding pvc track joints .. it is not done with pro metal track..

Apologies for that Christopher - perhaps my sense of humor did not come across - that's why I added the word (joke) by that line.

If you re-read my post, my point was that metal track works well if you know how to set it up - and that this is where experienced crews are an asset.

I should have added that what you saw as an advantage - that PVC flexes - would be unacceptable in cases where you have any horizon or background object that would then move down and up as the camera moves with the track. That can be an issue with heavy wall track too - that's why sometimes you add blocks and wedges under the rails between the crosses.

For walk and talkss, how about dropping back to your original comfort level of handheld, but renting an easyrig to make your shooting better and easier?

then use a slider style dolly on tables, stands, and apple boxes to get horizontal moves

This is excellent advice.
If you find that the usual set of commercial sliders cannot do the full move, check into getting a hold of a CamTram. Absolutely wonderful piece of gear.
Runs on extension ladders, wood framing, PVC, ABS, standard track and custom rigs (even works underslung).

You can use two pieces of speedrail and a mounting spreader to create a long run. One name for the spreader I'm referring to is "ladder truss". Can be purchased with either ears to go into a large grip head or with a Junior pin to go into a stand. Better ones are adjustable in width... Speedrail simply slips in, tightened and you have a custom slider rail system.

 

[Met Hrovat]

Hey Douglas, is that the LONG VALLEY EQUIPMENT?

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

I don't see why I would use solid rubber track if it doesn't work on gravel, grass, rough surfaces. The very reason to use track is because it lets you shoot on these surfaces. I tested the solid rubber flex track on my gravel driveway and my lawn and it was absolutely unuseable.

Doug, I fully agree with you. Using flexible track on grass or gravel is ludicrous - I have no idea why it was brought into the conversation.
After all, the original poster was talking about shooting inside a hotel - not a campground...

I've been using curved track (and straight) for more years than I can count and can again attest - if you set it up right, you won't have bumps at the junctions.
Very nice that you have the same experience with your PVC track!


From my own experience, there are two good uses for flexible track
1. Because it is flexible. When needed, a curve can be fabricated that cannot be otherwise achieved.
2. Curved track can be a pain to transport - a lot of it won't fit in an elevator (does yours? if so, we need to talk someday) A single piece of flexible track fits in one easily transportable case about 30" diameter and less than two feet high. Unroll it, bend it back on itself, add some spacers and presto.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

My company is Long Valley Equipment

I don't see any advantage of the flexible solid rubber track over my straight and curved PVC, except that possibly you could do some unique curves with it, as long as you are on a fairly smooth surface to begin with.

You can put our curves in our standard carry bag which is 5 feet long. 4 curves and 4 straights in one carry bag. Check the bag on an airline. Looks like you are checking a snowboard bag - it's about that size.

Sure, shoot inside a hotel. Is it an old one? Then the thresholds will be uneven. And you may have to go from carpet to bare wood. Or you might want to go oustide a hotel room in the grass or dirt or gravel, and shoot toward a window, doing a dolly move. Or maybe go around the pool on uneven concrete. OP did say ALMOST all the shots are inside the hotel . . .

PVC (or ABS if you like black instead of white) works both inside and out. No spacers - that trip actors - needed.

Rigid metal track can be a pain to transport. Ours is not rigid metal track.

Anything that runs on an elevated track like Dana Dolly, CamTram, sliders, etc can't be used for much distance if you want to shoot IN THE DIRECTION OF THE TRACK, because you'll see it in the shot.

Rigid metal track, especially the Filmair which I used three days ago, is nice but I generally don't have time for it. It takes about 5 times longer to set up than PVC/ABS. The flexible rubber doesn't work except in very limited situations that I can cover with PVC/ABS anyway.

If I have to work all by myself and get some tiny moves, then I would go for a slider. But usually I pack the Seven Jib. Or maybe the Spyder . . .

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Doug,

Not to worry, I know who you are. I'm actually one of the owners of one of the pre-XL versions of the Seven jib.
Note my quote from post #4:

Ditto with a small jib such as a Seven - plenty of others in the same class. I've mixed a Seven jib on top of a doorway dolly - easy to set, use and strike.
You can also use that as a swing arm....

It is only one tool of many that I own and use. I can understand that most people lock in on their favorites - especially if they have a vested interest.

No need to shout in caps about shooting in the direction of the track - how you frame the shot makes a difference too.
Point the camera straight back level on a full body shot and you see PVC on the ground too.

Feels too much like an attack on my posts brewing - In my own defense, I was simply trying to give someone who proclaimed "inexperience" as many options as possible.
Including your product.
Sorry that made folks defensive.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

My statement about the name of my company was in response to Met, who asked me directly.

I'm talking about equipment, not people or personalities. An artist can use baling wire and garden hose and make something profound, so any equipment choice by an artist to attain his particular goal is therefore valid.

Back to the equipment:

You'll see elevated track in the shot way before you see track that's on the ground. Also, actors can't step between rails of elevated track, and walk toward or away fom camera.

Elevated track like with Camtram or Dana dolly can fly over objects or through windows, over cars, and you can undersling as well.

A Fisher or Chapman on steel or Filmair track is very smooth, and it also looks very impressive to the client, much more so than skateboard dollies.

You can run a skateboard dolly from the beach, into the ocean, and not destroy it - so good for those D -Day shots. Also you can carry a skateboard dolly in one hand and throw it with track into the trunk of most cars, so you don't need a van and a dolly party to get a ten foot move. Skateboard dollies and track are much faster to set up, so you'll get more dolly shots in a day. Since they are faster to set, they are faster to re-set if you decide to move the whole rig, say, three feet to the right.

If you just need a Mickey Rooney (a little creep) then a slider may be the way to go. They are super portable, really, the smallest, fastest option of all.

I've always liked the idea of the Matthews Briefcase dolly, but the caster wheels used on the ground don't turn well, and the track trucks only have two wheels each so they don't ride on the track as well. I haven't used the Matthews Briefcase flexible track but many have told me it doesn't work well - anyone have experience here?

Doorway dollies need smooth surfaces to run on, and you might have just that, but in my experience most of the time there is a crack in the pavement or a bump that means you have to lay track. I had to shoot in a working hospital once, and the floors were very smooth and laying track was a bad idea as it causes blockage if others have to wheel equpment by, and also people trip over it. So I will probably integrate non-track wheels into one of my dolliles for these situations.

The Movi and other hand held stabilizers might be the new thing, what with cameras getting smaller and the great results I see. I wonder how loud they are? I think that you'd want to use them with something like the Panasonic GH3 but I bet you could really strip down a Scarlet or Epic and get good results. I think that you'd have to be Hurcules to hold one for more than ten minutes.

I have one of those knock off Steadicams, and it's actually pretty good! But I'm not! It's been fun working with it. I think that SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK used Steadicam as many would hand held - that is, it roamed and stayed with the characters in an almost improv way. Very inspirational technique.

 

[Luke Kokinos]

Thanks, guys.

I think I've got some ideas to go on. One question I don't think got answered was if track can be set up on stairs. Is that possible?

 

[Glen Powell]

Thanks, guys.

I think I've got some ideas to go on. One question I don't think got answered was if track can be set up on stairs. Is that possible?

Sure - definitely! Everything in film is possible… How wide are the stairs? Are they wide enough for the dolly and any action that you want? If you have no budget - how are you going to get an experienced rigging crew to build support (wedges / ply etc) to lay the steel track on? They'll need to screw it all down and make the track safe so it doesn't buckle, twist or slide away. You'll also need some beefy guys to lift the dolly into place; plus a cable / pulley / winch system to move it up and down (That'll have to be anchored as well).

Remember when I said everything is possible? I meant if you have enough money and an experienced crew who knows what they are doing, plus a director & D.P. that know how to work within those limits.

 

[Luke Kokinos]

I see. Since we are shooting on location, I think I'll find an alternative way to get the shot. All that rigging and screwing and whatnot may be a bit much our timeframe.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

You might find it easier to use a jib or Steadicam to deal with stairs, rather than run track up them.

If I had to run track up stairs, I'd want a very lightweight dolly set up!

 

[Met Hrovat]

Doug, I fully agree with you. Using flexible track on grass or gravel is ludicrous - I have no idea why it was brought into the conversation.
After all, the original poster was talking about shooting inside a hotel - not a campground...

Well Luke was asking about what are different possibilities out there.

From my own experience, there are two good uses for flexible track
1. Because it is flexible. When needed, a curve can be fabricated that cannot be otherwise achieved.
2. Curved track can be a pain to transport - a lot of it won't fit in an elevator (does yours? if so, we need to talk someday) A single piece of flexible track fits in one easily transportable case about 30" diameter and less than two feet high. Unroll it, bend it back on itself, add some spacers and presto.

Yup, that's it. Couldn't agree more. Flex Trax are great but limited.

You might find it easier to use a jib or Steadicam to deal with stairs, rather than run track up them.

Douglas is right,... you should probably concentrate on an easier solution, like Steadicam. The results would look very similar if not the same.

 

[Kerson Raymond]

If you're on tight budget and your key grip person(s) is/are new to using a professional dolly.. I'd say start with one that they can manage with track or without track. Get Familiar..practice with a small gun before you handle a machine gun... Get the feel of it first..

http://www.filmtools.com/masteqdotr.html

 

[Met Hrovat]

Usually the better the gear, the less practice you need.

 

[Matt Hartle]

I'm late to respond on this... What I use with very minimal crew is a jib and a slide. Those two bits of gear really give you a great range of motion. There's obviously things they can't accommodate but I've had a lot of luck with them. For your stairs needs, I'd go shoulder rig for a more hand held look or steadicam for a smoother motion. Hire someone to do the steadicam work if it's a new area, they are amazingly hard to get great shots on without a lot of experience.