Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dolly questions

L

Luke Kokinos

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
84
Reaction score
0
Points
6
I'm setting out to shoot a feature film. I'm going to be on location in a hotel and I need camera movement. I'm shooting on a R1 MX, and I'm thinking of going with a Fisher 9 dolly, because it seems like the cheapest way to get all the shots I'm going to want. I read that Fisher still rents the 9, and I was thinking of that over the 11 or 10 because of the cost.

I've never used one before. Since almost all the scenes are inside, I was wondering if the dolly would be able to roam free, or if I would need to track? I'm going to be working on a tight budget, so cost is a huge factor. Is a dolly the best option? Is the cost of shipping such a huge piece of gear going to be a killer? Would I be better off using a steadicam? I am in no way knowledgable on this subject, and I was hoping someone could give me the full rundown of the pros and cons of shooting on location with a dolly of this caliber.

Thanks,
 
These are all great questions to ask your Key Grip…
As to track or no track - What's the floor like? 9 times out of 10 on location you'll need track, and a dolly grip to make it work, and a couple of grips to last and level track. Have you never worked on a set and watched a dolly set-up and tear-down? Ever? Just asking 'cause I don't know your level of experience, but you sound fresh

If you do get the dolly, don't forget to ask them to throw in a 'cable stretcher' in case yours are too short.
 
Never used a real dolly, all handheld, only a RED owner as of late. I'm a little wet behind the ears still as far as all the aspects of higher-quality production goes. I'm young, not lazy. I'm always learning.

My problem is a lack of experienced crew members. Most of the people I currently work with are run and gun filmmakers. Sadly their the ones who will work for free when I need them to. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places? What luck can I expect from trying to find experienced crews with tiny budget productions?
 
Mostly interiors? Inside a hotel?
You may find that a dolly the size of a Fischer 9 will be more inhibiting than helpful.

Try looking for an Elemack or a Panther with a center column. Especially if you are working in tight spaces, a dolly that can be used for dance floor moves - all 4 wheels crabbing - will be very beneficial.
Are you planning on moving the camera vertically during a move or just using that capability for quick changes in framing between shots?
If not for active moves, you can change height off a doorway dolly equipped with risers or a bazooka.
Offset tools - such as a bangi will increase your shot options.
Ditto with a small jib such as a Seven - plenty of others in the same class. I've mixed a Seven jib on top of a doorway dolly - easy to set, use and strike.
You can also use that as a swing arm...

Suggest that before you commit to using a dolly in the Fischer class, take a drive to someone that owns one and check it out. (There is a Fischer 11 across the border from you in IL)

As others pointed out, dolly track depending on the surface - but an experienced setup crew will be a life and time saver. You mentioned not having an experienced crew in your immediate asset list - everyone needs to start somewhere - so build the experience a step at a time.

As far as a Steadicam, same approach. It takes a long time to learn how to use those tools effectively - with time, effort and practice, you can land some shots - but a Steadicam operator will tell you - it takes skill, not just a piece of equipment.

If this is a film that you have a lot of personal investment in, my recommendation is to use the tools you are most familiar with first so that you don't lose track of what you are trying to create. If you can enlist a experienced Steadicam operator or dolly grip - go for it. Learn from them. Apply that knowledge the next time...
 
Luke Kokinos said:
What luck can I expect from trying to find experienced crews with tiny budget productions?
Click to expand...
That's where working on other peoples sets (people with budgets) is the real place of learning. You get to see how things are done, and you meet crew and build relationships. A lot of this business is about those relationships and being able to draw on the experience of others.
 
Fisher 11 or Chapman Peewee with 24-30 feet of track and levelling wedges and cribbing is what I try to put on most of my small films. However, I have experienced dolly grips available in my market.
you could also use "dancefloor" to level the hotel floors.. and yes, you are likely to need it. In the old days, we used Masonite on top of 3/4" 4x8 , 4x4 and 2x4 foot sections of plywood, and taped the seams with paper tape. also, offset the seams of your plywood with those of your masonite, to decrease the bumps of the joints.
1/4" or 3/8" Sintra plastic could be used instead of masonite.
You could also consider, a "Doorway Dolly" with Track wheels and round track. This will let you get a dolly move from camera on a tripod.
OR.. for total low bucks.. get the smoothest rolling wheelchair you can find (NOT THE CHEAPEST ONE YOU CAN FIND) and put down dancefloor and hand hold the camera as someone pushes you.
If you use a wheelchair, practice and test way before shooting day. it is not as smooth as you would think
I am not a grip, so there are things I am sure I do not know about prepping and operating a dolly.. BUT as a guy who has ridden a dolly.. I know a couple of things.
 
GREAT DEAL on the briefcase dolly.. get round track and you are in business...
this is actually offered at about a 1 month to 6 weeks rental rate in my market..
Rental on a real dolly is about $650/week in my market.

The Long Valley products are also a good deal for your project. very portable..

While I love my Dana Dolly, it is better for short horizontal moves than for walk and talk shots.
 
What is really interesting about camera grip is the disparity between how important camera movment (or lack of) is and the complete absence of online discussion about it... Endless forums talking about lots of crap that makes nearly no difference to cinema but only one dolly grip online resource...

http://www.dollygrippery.net/

Why (and how) a camera moves or not effects meaning massively but so very little interest (and untill recently not much innovation)... So it is good to see your post...

To your post:

Please can you post some examples of the moves you need?... it might be that a short Jib could be useful but I'd need to see what you want. If you are not sure then beg/pay for a good dolly grip to come on board and let him/her help you build the language.
 
I'll need to do tracking shots, subtle movements, vertical movements, and I'd like to have my shots continue for a while, it's a suspense film, and I don't constant cuts breaking the tension. The surface I'll be shooting on most is carpeted, tiled, or cement. Another question, with any dolly, is there was to move down a flight of stairs? The third act of the film takes place primarily in a stairwell.

The reason I shied away from steadicam shooting is because I have no knowledge or background with shooting with one.

Brian, you wouldn't happen to know who that dolly owner is?

Would the Kessler Dolly be something to consider? The flexible track is what catches me. But I've heard Kessler gear is good for DSLRs but not so much for RED, especially for an R1. Is that true, or am I ill informed?

As I said, I'm not currently working with people who aren't any more familiar with this gear than I am. I know the experience counts for something, but if I wasn't able to convince experienced grips to work on my film, would people, with my level of experience, be able to be trained for this equipment?

I do have personal investment in the project. I wrote and will be directing it. I ask about the dolly because it seems to be a little more straight forward than something like a steadicam. I looked into the Fisher style dollys because I've seen BTS footage of them being used freeroaming. I have no problem using track, it's just sort of one more thing.

I don't actually have a cash in hand for the project at the moment. I'm working something out with my location at the moment, so I know what they are going to want, and I'm also trying to figure out any production costs. Trying to keep it under $15,000. I have actors who are willing to work for free, my leading lady just left the Screen Actors Guild to join the cast for this. I can budget more for gear. Should I consider hiring a key grip who has experience working with the gear I rent?
 
MUCH easier for a beginner to get good results with a dolly than a steadicam.
So, given the choice of a free beginner.. go with the beginner dolly grip..


My neighbor bought flex track and a 3 wheel set for his FS100 and DSLR tripod.. it is barely appropriate.. but part of that is not using a full platform with wheels on 4 corners. however.. several times I have been on a larger platform on skate wheels on PVC or steel tube track, and gotten excellent results.

There are kits online if you look... and LV has the joining dowels for PVC.. just remember to smooth out the seam with a fine sandpaper or you will see the bumps in your shots.

Booming up and down can be cheated with a short jib arm.. or achieved on a tv studio pedestal.
Otherwise, that's one of the features in a Fisher or Chapman dolly.

I have used Elemack Dollies, and they vary a lot in utility.. Not good for a beginner, due to a steep learning curve. Also, if they were not serviced just before your job, they will be even more awkward to use that they already are..



you probably want a combo of a jib with BEEFY tripod and Platform dolly if you want to do pans and boom movements.
Got any friends at the local tv station? they might have a "pedestal" tripod you could get your hands on.. go look at it first..
you would absolutely need to put down dance floor.

Long valley rig and (rented) massive tripod may be your friend...

call the mail order lens rental places on the phone.. and if there is a convention center near you, someone is using jibs, cranes, etc in the video coverage of events.. see who is doing those tasks... someone may want to be part of your movie.. and know where to rent their tools..
I will tell you that the "wheeled Spreader" style dolly is not good by itself for tracking shots... you need to have track to make that happen.
 
Last edited:
Some great info here! As a low-budget-level filmmaker (about to finish my MFA) I can definitely agree that the Fisher is a great tool as that is what we get at my school in LA. The thing I like the most about it is that it pretty much eliminates the need for the tripod. You can easily drive it around to find your shots and boom up and down really easily. We do this all the time without track or dancefloor, but HARDLY ever do movements without track, as replicating it gets really difficult for the Dolly Grip and also the 1st AC pulling focus.

I've always wanted to get a slider up on the Fisher that we have as that would add some awesome dynamics to the camera.

As far as Steadicam, it tends to get really expensive with a good operator, and if you've never worked with one before it might be tough to schedule your scenes properly or even just creating shot lists, because you tend to think that everything can be done in a single shot without coverage. Speaking of which, I'm about to shoot my thesis film which will have a big exterior night steadicam and a bunch of interior scenes that are all on dolly, so I know exactly what you're feeling!

PM me if you want to talk more about this!

Ira
 
and I'd like to have my shots continue for a while
Click to expand...

Sounds like you will need proper grip kit driven with a bit of experience. Reach out to your DP about this as they will have both ideas and contacts.

Also you will be able to learn lot of this stuff BUT you will have your hands full and need to get support as soon as you can.
 
Luke Kokinos said:
Brian, you wouldn't happen to know who that dolly owner is?
Click to expand...

For the Fischer, start here:
Over the state line in Belvidere, Illinois : http://www.2ndcine.com/equipment/dollyjib/dolly_jib.html

As an alternate in Milwaukee: http://www.bodicompany.com/uploads/bodico_complete_a_la_carte_list_10.pdf
They list a Chapman Super Pee Wee III
Plus, jibs, track, etc…



Luke Kokinos said:
The flexible track is what catches me.
Click to expand...

Losmandy sells a very good flexible track.
A word of caution though; spacers are very important as well as a solid surface below.
 
The solid rubber flexible track doesn't work, because you need a smooth surface below it, so you can't use it on grass, gravel, rough pavement, anything with cracks.

Rigid metal track such as Mattthews and Filmair almost allways needs to be shimmed into a continuous plane to work correctly or you will have rocking/bumping at joints.

PVC pipe can be used on rough surfaces and usually doesn't need to be shimmed because it flexes.
 
Luke Kokinos said:
I'm going to be on location in a hotel ....
Since almost all the scenes are inside, ...
Click to expand...

As I said in my post, when you use flex track - have a solid surface.
It is not meant for gravel or grass.
I've used the Losmandy flex track in industrial areas with cracks in concrete floors - never a problem.
Sometimes the standard 10' or 20' circle just don't fit in the space or match the shot required. That is one of the situations when I deploy the flex.

As far as using Matthews track - or any other - of course the joints need to be lined up correctly or the camera will notice the transition. Don't need to sand it at the joints (joke), just line it up correctly.
The track comes in sections for a reason - so you can set it to different lengths as needed.
Plus, you may need to add a slight curve partway through the move (hence, curved track).

I own over a hundred feet of Matthews precision track + some of the "ShotMaker" I-Beam style track. With the Matthews, I can add a 22.5 or 45 degree curve at any point I need it.

Good grips will be familiar with the wedges, blocks and tricks that will speed up the setup and still provide a smooth surface to move on. That is where having experienced crew is an asset for any production.
 
Thanks Brian, I'll give them a call.

As far as Matthews track, how inhibiting is it to the actors? will they be able to walk down/between it? Or will it have to be out of their way?
 
Hi Luke,

Take a look at our design, CamDolly- Modular Camera Dolly and Slider System... and tell me what you think.
You can set the CamDolly up as a slider, table top/orbiting dolly, fully rideable tracking dolly with 50 feet of flexible solid rubber track, doorway dolly, etc.
It can carry you and any camera really.
Oh... and it can be set up literally in 5 minutes.

Sounds too good to be true?
Take a look:

Some pics (not sure why it won't let me import the pics):
http://camdolly.com/CamDolly-01.jpg
http://camdolly.com/CamDolly-02.jpg

I spent last 3 years designing it to be the best possible fit for today's fast pace film making. To fit all cameras and last you a life time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top