Does the EPIC X make the RED One obsolete?

[Lawrence Daufenbach]

I was wondering what most people are thinking will happen to the RED One once the EPIC is released. Is it worth purchasing a RED One at this point? Or just wait for the EPIC...

 

[Peter Weisberg]

well you could always buy a red one right now and then upgrade it to the epic when it comes out so you will be able to have first purchase of the epic and all the money towards your red one can go directly towards the epic. So if anytime now is the best time to buy a red one if you are seriously considering an epic. The only thing that might be an issue would be what accessories you buy with the red one and how they would carry over with the epic. But by purchasing a red one now, you would effectively be putting a substantial down payment on an epic with the added bonus of having first dibs on the epic when it finally is released. just food for thought...

 

[Jaime Vallés]

I would go as far as saying that (according to published specs) even the S35 Scarlet makes the RED ONE obsolete.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I would go as far as saying that (according to published specs) even the S35 Scarlet makes the RED ONE obsolete.

Exactly. You beat me to it.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I would go as far as saying that (according to published specs) even the S35 Scarlet makes the RED ONE obsolete.

Well definitely not obsolete since specifications are very different but it will give quite some competition and render EPIC a lesser good of a buy. Unless we manage to persuade clients that there's a reason for them to rent EPIC instead of Scarlet for normal frame rates.

 

[Jaime Vallés]

Well definitely not obsolete since specifications are very different but it will give quite some competition and render EPIC a lesser good of a buy. Unless we manage to persuade clients that there's a reason for them to rent EPIC instead of Scarlet for normal frame rates.

S35 Scarlet vs RED ONE:

Resolution: 5K vs 4K - Scarlet wins
Dynamic Range: Mysterium X vs Mysterium - Scarlet wins
Frame Rates (in full resolution): 72fps bursts vs 30fps max - Scarlet wins
Frame Rates (cropped sensor): 30fps vs 120fps - RED ONE wins
1080 recording without cropping: Yes vs No - Scarlet wins

And this doesn't even take pricing into account...

RED ONE (with CF reader): $18000

S35 Scarlet brain: $7000
I/O module: $1000 (?)
REDmote module: $1000 (?)
CF card module: $1000 (?)
TOTAL: $10000*
*Approximate estimate based on best guess of module prices

The only reasons I see to use RED ONE (or Epic for that matter) are higher frame rates and anamorphic support.

 

[Peter Hodgins]

But from the Red.com site ....

What are a RED ONE owner’s upgrade options?
2. Keep your RED ONE and upgrade your sensor to Mysterium-X for $4500.

So how would a RED One with Mysterium-X compare to an Epic-X or Scarlet?

I really want to know what people think about this comparison.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

My apologies I read as if you said it made EPIC obsolete (don't know why, maybe because I've slept approx 3hrs hhaha).

BUT RED ONE has advantages in multiple format recording and frame rates, since it's bursts and we don't know what that means.

Since when was it decided that the modules are priced at $1K each?

 

[Jaime Vallés]

BUT RED ONE has advantages in multiple format recording and frame rates, since it's bursts and we don't know what that means.

Indeed, the higher frame rates with a cropped sensor are the main advantage of the RED ONE.

Since when was it decided that the modules are priced at $1K each?

It hasn't been decided. That's just my best guess, based on the prices of other RED accessories. But even if the modules cost $2000 each, you're still talking $13000 for the Scarlet vs $18000 for RED ONE.

 

[Tom Lowe]

No it won't be obsolete, any more than the Nikon D3 is obsolete after the D3X came out. The D3 can still take amazing pictures.

Regarding specs, don't be surprised if Scarlet FF35 and S35 turn out to get more FPS added with firmware or whatever down the line.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

RED One will also be upgradeable to some extent. Mysterium-X sensor, etc.. And it's available now, full trade in value of the body toward EPIC.

In addition to frame rate options, EPIC should offer higher data rates for better record quality vs. Scarlet at some point, as hinted at by the preliminary specs so far. I say we wait until all the specs are more finalized and cameras are ready to ship before passing final judgement. But I think the RED One will have a nice niche for itself for some time to come.

 

[Ralph B.]

obsolete: no longer produced or used; out of date.

Does EPIC X make the Red one obsolete?
hmmm I'd say no. The Red one is a member of the RED family that will be producing amazing images for the forceable future. Since RED is ahead of the widespread ability to view and work with the full res versions of its output. In fact until there is some sort of wide spread distribution for something greater than 2k I think we will continue to see RED one footage emerging or re-emerging (I can imagine a 4K "print" of Knowing showing up at some point for instance).

But I think it goes without saying if you have a choice get an EPIC.

 

[David Rasberry]

May Red One have as long a useful life as Mitchell #1 had. Mitchell#1 was built sometime in the 1920's ? I think. It was still being used to film Hawaii 5 Oh in the 1960's.:thumbsup:

 

[Joseph Ward]

Regarding specs, don't be surprised if Scarlet FF35 and S35 turn out to get more FPS added with firmware or whatever down the line.

Absolutely!:sifone:

 

[Häakon]

S35 Scarlet vs RED ONE:

Frame Rates (cropped sensor): 30fps vs 120fps - RED ONE wins

Scarlet can actually do 72p in 2K cropped, although the RED ONE is still faster in this regard. Just wanted to point that out in case it wasn't common knowledge.

I definitely think Epic renders the RED ONE obsolete, but it just depends on how you choose to define the word. The fact that a S35 Scarlet also beats it out in nearly every category is good, too, I believe. Jim & Co. aren't watering down their products to maintain an unrealistic product tier, and more options at lower prices are better for all of us. It forces the other companies to really have to work hard to catch up, too.

You have to expect - especially in this day and age - that technology is going to outdate and leapfrog itself on a yearly basis. Whether or not you personally call that "obsoleting" a previous model is subjective, but the more important factor is that we're getting unbelievable technology at more and more aggressive prices. It is a remarkable time to be a filmmaker.

 

[Lee Saxon]

No it won't be obsolete, any more than the Nikon D3 is obsolete after the D3X came out. The D3 can still take amazing pictures.

Regarding specs, don't be surprised if Scarlet FF35 and S35 turn out to get more FPS added with firmware or whatever down the line.

The D3x isn't a replacement for the D3. The D3 is the 'low' resolution / high framerate camera and the D3x is the high resolution / 'low' framerate camera. Sports vs. studio, sort of.

The more accurate comparison would be "is the D2h obsolete after the D3 came out?" or "is the D2x obsolete after the D3x came out?"

I agree with that it's not obsolete insofar as current D2x[R1] owners don't need to go out and buy a D3x[Epic] because their current camera still works just fine.

However, for people that have neither camera, or need an additional camera, I don't think there's much of an argument for them to buy D2x[R1] instead of a D3x[Epic] (except the possibility of getting a used one at a steep discount). In that sense it is obsolete.

 

[Dominic Jones]

IMO, people are throwing around the term "obsolete" a little loosely with regards to this issue. As someone mentioned before, the term obsolete refers to equipment that is no longer of viable use, often because it is no longer compatible with existing technology, sometimes because standards have change preventing it's use, and in some cases because it simply is no longer good enough to work in it's intended capacity.

None of the above are true about the Red One now, and none will be true for a good while.

The Epic (or Scarlet, for that matter) lines of cameras do not make the R1 obsolete. What it does do is demote it from being a top-of-the-line camera, much as the F-950 did to the F-900 (and now, of course, the F-23 takes that one step further).

I still regularly shoot on F-900s, and they still produce great HD images compared to a lot of cameras. Hell, I still shoot on DigiBeta cameras - as recently as last week, in fact!

A Red One will be a very viable shooting option for a very long time. As a purchase it doesn't make so much sense once Epic is released, but then as I understand it, Red will not be selling the R1's once Epic becomes available. It will still be supported and upgradeable, however, and so will not become obsolete in that sense, either...

Cheers,
Dom.

 

[Steve Sanacore]

What's to stop Jim from upgrading the RED ONE with new circuit boards when upgrading the sensor and upgrading all the performance specs? I am sure they could fit much faster and cooler running components in the same board space the RED ONE has now.

Just a thought...

 

[Tom Lowe]

Well Jim has already stated there will be some upgrades for R1.

But I think long term, one of the main ideas behind DSMC, is to make it the ultimate upgradeable camera, due to its modular design.

This is one of the greatest ideas ever, because it totally goes against what these camera companies have been getting away with for ages. I imagine that Jim's name gets tossed around with a lot of expletives at Sony and Canon board meetings! :sifone:

 

[Häakon]

A Red One will be a very viable shooting option for a very long time. As a purchase it doesn't make so much sense once Epic is released, but then as I understand it, Red will not be selling the R1's once Epic becomes available.

I didn't hear that they wouldn't be selling RED ONEs anymore... in fact, I thought it was their intention to keep it as a part of their line. Either way, though, you're right... as a purchase it wouldn't make so much sense anymore.

Language is fluid and definitions aren't static. In my opinion, if you can get Camera "A" with better features and at less cost than Camera "B," then Camera "B" has been obsoleted regardless of the fact that it can still be used to make great pictures. If it's no longer being sold, there's an even greater case to make for its obsolescence. Are cassette tapes obsoleted even though I can still buy blanks and play them in my car? Are CDs obsoleted now that everyone is downloading music and listening to everything on an iPod? It completely depends on who you ask. That's why it's good to preface things with "I think" or "in my opinon," because simply stating "the Epic lines of cameras do not make the R1 obsolete" does not make it true, and yours is simply another point of view.