Does anyone know if the Epic will be able to be used as a studio camera and for ...

[Carlo Rho]

Live concerts broadcasted

Live concerts broadcasted

We did concerts with up to 9 Redone recording 4K and broadcasting live 720p (with clean Sorroundview), not little ones but MTV World Stage with a lot of pressure from a TV production absolutely unware of what a cinema camera is. We went live on TV nationally (Spain) and then the 4K material was downconverted with RCX to 1080p AppleProRes HQ edited and color corrected for worldwide broadcast on MTV channels. Search for Arctic Monkeys (2010) and My Chemical Romance (2011) World Stage live from Valencia, we did both with R1s.
We plan to do them with Epics and we can see clear benefits of the new camera, some of them:
1. SSD instead of REDdrive, no more weird foam enclosures and drop frame fear, we managed how to don`t have almost any dropframe but we're always scared.
2. 1080 clean output, allow to broadcast with any HD mobile van, 720p it's not a standard so it's a kind of hard to use it with normal broadcast structures.
2.5. 1080 clean output, let you record the program in HDcam (or whatever flavor producers want) to save your ass in worst cases
3. Clean output without LCD & EVF, I never liked to build up on a 13m (40+ feet) crane a R1 with accessories just to have the clean output
4. Size, R1 is always considered too bulky for on stage work, we used 5Ds instead so no live from stage and then the colorist freak out....
5. Batteries, an Epic need a RED Brick for 3h so the all concert is covered. A R1 needs to be powered by wire, so one cable less and less fear of the rain.
6. Timecode, hopefully Epic has it more stable (I have no idea right now, someone with an M could help on this) so you can work without the TC cable always in.
7. FPS, ability to broadcast 25p and record 50p or 75p to insert slowmotion stuff in post, our director love this idea.
8. REDmote, wireless ability to check the camera without disturbing the operator, our cameras are always moving (Cranes, travellings, etc)

I'm looking forward to try my Epics in heavy sound envoirment as soon as we get them.

 

[Joe DiRosa]

Thanks everyone for the response. Really! Couple responses that I would like to address..

1) Jack - by live streaming I meant over satellite or high speed internet/fiber to the networks probably in standard or HD format. Obviously in the future broadcast systems may adapt 4k as they are now streaming 3-D and HD channels. Having an archive of footage in that format in particular concerts and other content would be beneficial. Also I am not sure why SSD's wouldn't be practical in concert or fashion shows? They might be a little expensive for fashion shows but the data could be transferred at a later time for archiving.

2) Blair - Regarding the fiber module I was thinking something similar. I think fiber would be the only way and it would you allow to stream the raw 4k over 4k commercial projectors
that RED is developing. It would be great for live events like concerts and for more permanent installations in event spaces.. Quite costly but it might replace some LED uses.. Actually you might be able to adapt the 4k feed for use on LED boards for sports and concerts.. With the 240 FPS that would make some quality high def slow motion replay..

3) Stuart - Dont worry we dont plan to shoot the local news! Really its a production space/special event/concert space that will have broadcast/mixing station. We would be able to broadcast concerts, fashion shows, awards shows etc.. there will be a couple smaller filming areas within the same building for more standard content like interviews or talk shows etc..

Carlo I will definitely check out the footage you mentioned... Thanks everyone for all the input!

 

[Jack Cooper]

1) Jack - by live streaming I meant over satellite or high speed internet/fiber to the networks probably in standard or HD format. Obviously in the future broadcast systems may adapt 4k as they are now streaming 3-D and HD channels. Having an archive of footage in that format in particular concerts and other content would be beneficial. Also I am not sure why SSD's wouldn't be practical in concert or fashion shows? They might be a little expensive for fashion shows but the data could be transferred at a later time for archiving.

We are seeing a trend with live streaming that conflicts with Jim's previous prediction of 4K for networks (I am unable to find the previous link with the RedUser Search). Although, I personally hope its a timing issue - ie. 4K network use will be here faster than we are seeing. Would love for Jim's prediction to come true.

Case in point, The University of Texas now effectively has its own network. IMG controls most of the contracting. For the Texas Relay's (large track and field event every year), they are now simulcasting over the Web. So in addition to a live cable view, you can also get a similar web stream (although the quality is obviously less on the web ).

We concur, all of our clients like to have back up archive of the footage - which usually gets cut for another TV program is some shape or fashion.

With respect to the SSD issue, for us, it's a man-power issue which bloats streaming budgets in today's world. Our early thoughts were...ok...use SSD, have a runner, extract media, run to centralized DIT, and begin triple back up. Shuttle media back and forth to all cameras and you might have 3 or 4 additional FTE's in the equation. On concerts, the drives are not full proof from what I hear - so you may be back to a SSD solution anyways. Fashion shows are more drive suitable in our opinion.

We'll have to see how it all shakes out...

 

[Joe DiRosa]

Jack,

I was actually thinking it would be great to have archived concert footage for programming for new 4k channels much like HD over the last 5+ years has been on specialized channels or on On Demand. Channels would be looking for broadcast programming already available in the 4k format ready to go. Could be financially lucrative down the line.

Whats the expected amount of footage that a 256g ssd can hold on Epic? Most of our filming will be events on-site with our post on-site as well. You would be really talking about running up a couple floors for the back up. Granted with a 5 camera set up your talking about having 200k worth of drives on premises to be safe.

I dont think there would be the same rush in the work flow for our projects unless there was a specific delivery time for a client or media source for a format other than the live mix.

Thanks Jack.

 

[Jason Diamond]

Here are the basic storage matrices for the various SSD options and compression ratios.

Jason

 

[Joe DiRosa]

Carlo,

I checked out both concerts online. I think the second time around it looks much better. From what I could tell the My Chemical Romance footage looked better though that could be the contrast from the stage lighting since it looks like they had a much more intriguing lighting setup. Obviously the footage is compressed on youtube but in particular the footage on the RedOne from the My Chemical Romance concert looked incredible. Probably some of the clearest youtube footage i have seen.

Its probably a combination of more intriguing stage lighting, better software and experience the second time around. It certainly gives me some idea of what you would need from the stage lighting to have a quality viewing experience though. It does put my mind to rest.

It reminds me of a post i saw on here where they took early raw Red footage that was archived and ran it through the rendering with new software and showed the comparison of how much better the color came out with the new software. One of the reasons why I think Red is the right choice. Wonder what that Artic Monkey foorage would look like if you did that.

Also.. What an incredible venue to work on a project at!! Wow!

Thanks!

 

[Jack Cooper]

Joe.

Totally agree, workflow would be venue-specific. On some of our Texas venues, the concert footprint is way big...Like three football fields worth! Other venues could be more manageable like your example. We will be testing out the various scenarios with some of our upcoming projects (assuming Epic's release in that timeframe).

On your point about the networks...Our 10 year experience doesn't support those assumptions. Case in point, in 2003 we where the only group shooting Sony 700a 1080i - the "big broadcast" cameras (not prosumer handhelds) for our genre. For three months, the networks required producers to deliver both a SD and HD version. Then all of the sudden, they quit requiring HD and were up-res'ing the SD program.

It wasn't until just this year that the networks came back and started to require the HD versions. We had "future-proofed" our footage by continuing to shoot 1080i during that 8 year span. However, other producers are still allowed to up-res their footage (yes, it looks crappy).

Today, we shoot Red...yes you guessed it, we down convert and send it over. Other producers are STILL on the hdv handhelds...and we don't see any preferential treatment from the networks. Right now, the networks just don't have the infrastructure for 4K. Keep in mind, that only 1 division of Playboy has an HD capability!!! The other divisions are still on SD workflows and outputs. If you want to send them an HDCAM tape, they look at you like you are from Mars.

As I have mentioned before, I hope Jim's prediction for network 4K infrastructure happens sooner than later...but I'm not seeing any promising signposts.

 

[Albert C Martin]

Based on my first couple weeks with it, if you are committed to using the Epic-M of today for live studio work you can absolutely do so. That said, some live studio applications assume the use of triax or other "standards" the new school Epic is not equipped for "out of the box". If all you are planning on is having the Epic feed you a nice image over HD-SDI, you should be just fine.

To be clear, problems are usually more about the age and limitations (the studio, not me darn it ;-) of the facility than any lack of capability of the Epic.

Cheers - #19

Makes perfect sense and glad to hear these were the "issues" you were talking about. We have designed and built our facilities with these "issues" in mind and are running off of HD-SDI as well as camera control over Ethernet and lens control using some custom Bartech stuff. Not quite as clean as one triax cable but for the benefits we will see of going with the Epic cameras it will be well worth it. Definitely not "traditional" or "standard" though.

Maybe some third party vendor can come out with a module for the back of the camera that converts the outputs and camera control to standard studio triax. Would be nice to have remote iris shading as well that interfaces with a lens motor on a 35mm manual lens. As a bonus it would provide connections for standard studio zoom and focus knobs that will interface with the lens motors with no additional boxes needed. Any takers?

One issue I'm still trying to find a good solve for is how to use the Epic in a handheld/roving studio camera. Triax definitely holds up better to the abuse of being moved and drug around as opposed to a single HD-SDI cable hooked up the camera body. Hoping some slick, wireless no-latency HD solution that is compatible with the Epic comes to the market soon that will be able to be hooked into a switcher for a studio use. Most of what I see now is good for on-set monitoring but probably contains too much latency to be used in a live switched environment. If anyone knows of any good solves I'd love to hear it!

Now just waiting impatiently for our -M to arrive and blow all our minds here!

 

[Joe DiRosa]

Jack - as they say .. "Build it and they will come" .. Development of the 4k format will drive production of consumer electronics delivering that format. One thing people like to do is sit in front of the tv and watch a great picture. It will start with high end athletes, movie stars and trickle down.. Sure we will have to see if 3D TV is viable or compatible with 4k delivery but eventually it will take off for 2 reasons..1) Its a superior picture and product .. 2) It will give electronic companies a way to pitch everyone on buying a new TV.. Once the cameras and format are more developed.. maybe a 1-2 years after Epic X .. Then someone ( can anyone say Artist Series TV!) will undoubtedly develop a 4K channel much as Mark Cuban and Cablevision did with HD.
If you want a 4K TV for your home today you can actually buy one for $77,000 .. Check out this link..

Now i dont think all the networks will deliver 4K format for quite a while.. In fact a specialty network could only be delivered currently most likely on Verizon's Fios TV or another fiber based delivery system.. and many of us know how hard it is to actually find an area where you can get FIOS.. I've lived in many areas of Manhattan and have yet to find one building carrying it... Though it is advertised everywhere...!!

 

[Carlo Rho]

Joe,
the main difference is M sensor against MX sensor! Arctic Monkeys was shoot entirely with M's cameras while the My Chemical Romance concert was MX mainly. Actually is a mixture of R1-MX (cranes & travelings, 5 cameras), 5Ds (3 cameras on stage and 1 on a quite far building), 2 GoPros (on the drummer) and a 750 with a 76x zooms (on the singer) captured directly in AppleProRes 422HQ with our Qtake. The main problem was to set up colorimetry without CCUs, this was solved brilliantly by our Image Engineer using Kelvins & Tint to equalize the R1s and the 750. Also REDColor2 & REDGamma2 also help the contrast.
The venue is the same for both concerts (Science Museum by Calatrava) but the second year they've got the great idea of turn the stage 90º and use the museum as background.
I hope to do it with Epics next year and may be in a warmer day, Valencia is one of the warmest european cities and it's 2 years that we work in rainy cold days!