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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Do you have both sound devices mixpre and a Atomos shogun?

Joel Arvidsson

Joel Arvidsson

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So I been told by Atomos that there shogun monitors/recorders will convert the sdi signal from red cameras and convert it to hdmi with the start/stop triggering still there.

If this is correct we should be able to take the outgoing hdmi signal from the shogun and go into the hdmi of the mixpre3,6 or 10. Than you should be able to start/stop you mixpre from your camera.

I would be so grateful if some one with the opportunity to test this, could confirm that it works.

Its much money for me to try out since I got neither the shogun or a sd mixpre. It should work with both shogun inferno and flame.


Kind Regards
Joel Arvidsson
 
Well, curiosity got the better of me... Forced a quick test :)

Red Scarlet-W -> Redvolt Expander HDMI -> MixPre 3 = No timecode, no rec. trigger

Red Scarlet-W -> Redvolt Expander SDI -> Shogun HDMI -> MixPre 3 = Timecode is read on Shogun, no timecode or rec. trigger at MixPre

I'm very unfamiliar with all the settings on these devices, but I tried all the different permutations I could think of.

For a baseline reference, I tried a C300 mkII HDMI -> MixPre3 and it read TC no problem, but the rec. trigger behaved incorrectly. If I set the C300 to send a rec command (it's a menu option), then the MixPre would start recording IMMEDIATELY. It wouldn't wait for the actual record command from the camera. Pressing the rec button wouldn't start or stop the MixPre.

Soooo... my quick conclusion is that the MixPre doesn't play nicely with record commands, at least with the firmware versions I'm currently running on all the devices.

Caveats & guesses:

1) I don't have any SSDs in the Atomos, nor do I own any. I use it only as a monitor, so perhaps the "no media" situation disables the REC command?

2) I am running older firmware on all the devices. I upgraded the MixPre back in the winter when I first got it, and it has stayed there since. Scarlet-W and C300 are both on older firmware because I've read horror stories of cameras getting new bugs, bricking, etc... I adhere to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" when it comes to these kind of tech-tools.

If someone wants to point me towards specific instructions or settings, I'm happy to give it another shot later.

- IV
 
Here is the convesation i had with atpmos so im not fooling anyone.





Hi, red cameras dont output start/stop triggering by hdmi, the only do it by sdi.
And sound devices only have hdmi ports for reading start/stop triggering. So i need to bring the red cameras sdi meta data into the hdmi signal. And it seams like atomos can do this. Perhaps a shogun would do this. Getting hd sdi from the red and spit out a hdmi (with the triggering metadata) signal to the sound devices.*
Joel

Yes, you are right. A Shogun Inferno or Shogun Flame could do this job. SDI In triggered by the Red Camera, HDMI out signal is then also triggered for another recording device.
Sound devices

Thanks, seams like be getting a Shogun inferno and a sound devices mixpre6. Great news that the shogun inferno will pass through the sdi triggers to the hdmi signal!
Joel

You are welcome.
Sound devices
 
If someone have any other device that can be triggered instead of the mixpre serie, please test. Its good if we could verify that the triggering info really get passed on to the hdmi stream by the shogun. Would be so good if we could get this working!
 
Ivan Verlaan said:
Well, curiosity got the better of me... Forced a quick test :)

Red Scarlet-W -> Redvolt Expander HDMI -> MixPre 3 = No timecode, no rec. trigger

Red Scarlet-W -> Redvolt Expander SDI -> Shogun HDMI -> MixPre 3 = Timecode is read on Shogun, no timecode or rec. trigger at MixPre

I'm very unfamiliar with all the settings on these devices, but I tried all the different permutations I could think of.

For a baseline reference, I tried a C300 mkII HDMI -> MixPre3 and it read TC no problem, but the rec. trigger behaved incorrectly. If I set the C300 to send a rec command (it's a menu option), then the MixPre would start recording IMMEDIATELY. It wouldn't wait for the actual record command from the camera. Pressing the rec button wouldn't start or stop the MixPre.

Soooo... my quick conclusion is that the MixPre doesn't play nicely with record commands, at least with the firmware versions I'm currently running on all the devices.

Caveats & guesses:

1) I don't have any SSDs in the Atomos, nor do I own any. I use it only as a monitor, so perhaps the "no media" situation disables the REC command?

2) I am running older firmware on all the devices. I upgraded the MixPre back in the winter when I first got it, and it has stayed there since. Scarlet-W and C300 are both on older firmware because I've read horror stories of cameras getting new bugs, bricking, etc... I adhere to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" when it comes to these kind of tech-tools.

If someone wants to point me towards specific instructions or settings, I'm happy to give it another shot later.

- IV
Click to expand...
Hi Ivan do you have any timecode generator? There must be timecode for the syncing. Sorry i forgot to list that. My bad.

I mean red camera brains, shoguns and mixpre6 and below does not have timecode generators so it will be no timecode info to sync. Atleast from my understanding.

Edit: Seems like you can control the mixpre from Panasonic gh5 wich I guess have no timecode generator built in, it might just work without it?
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
Hi Ivan do you have any timecode generator? There must be timecode for the syncing. Sorry i forgot to list that. My bad.

I mean red camera brains, shoguns and mixpre6 and below does not have timecode generators so it will be no timecode info to sync. Atleast from my understanding.

Edit: Seems like you can control the mixpre from Panasonic gh5 wich I guess have no timecode generator built in, it might just work without it?
Click to expand...

GH5 doesn't hold accurate timecode (like all other cameras), as they lack a suitable timecode generator inside, but that doesn't mean they don't use timecode at all!

No, of course not. As they do have timecode running, just an inaccurate one!

And what happens when you hook up a GH5 with a MixPre or Tascam DR701D is that the recorder matches up exactly with the GH5 as it gets feed the GH5's time over HDMI.

So yeah, the GH5 is being inaccurate and drifting like hell compared to any accurate source.

But that doesn't matter if you only care about the GH5 and that one sound recorder hooked up via HDMI, because at least they're accurate relative to each other.
 
David Peterson said:
GH5 doesn't hold accurate timecode (like all other cameras), as they lack a suitable timecode generator inside, but that doesn't mean they don't use timecode at all!

No, of course not. As they do have timecode running, just an inaccurate one!

And what happens when you hook up a GH5 with a MixPre or Tascam DR701D is that the recorder matches up exactly with the GH5 as it gets feed the GH5's time over HDMI.

So yeah, the GH5 is being inaccurate and drifting like hell compared to any accurate source.

But that doesn't matter if you only care about the GH5 and that one sound recorder hooked up via HDMI, because at least they're accurate relative to each other.
Click to expand...


Sounds like kind of good news, only problem is that I have still to find a way to get out the sdi triggering from the red to hdmi. So as long you have the triggering working you dont need accurate timecode for syncing the external recorded audio? correct?

Anyway I just want to get going soon, so I started a thread on wich recorder to choose. I like to order a audio solution next week. Please put in a motivation on why I should choose the Zoom F8n zoom over mixpre6 and the beachtek exa-alexa (preamp only in that one). Thanks David.
 
Joel, have you looked at the Video Devices Pix-E recorders?

With the Pix-LR added on, they seem like they might do what you’re looking for.
 
No but, I have now. I guess it would work but i like to have an atomos 1500 nit screen. Would be cool if sound devices came out with an updated monitor/audio recorder.
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
Hi Ivan do you have any timecode generator? There must be timecode for the syncing. Sorry i forgot to list that. My bad.

I mean red camera brains, shoguns and mixpre6 and below does not have timecode generators so it will be no timecode info to sync. Atleast from my understanding.

Edit: Seems like you can control the mixpre from Panasonic gh5 wich I guess have no timecode generator built in, it might just work without it?
Click to expand...

No, I'm not using external timecode. Without external TC, the Red still has timecode though. The camera generates TC, and the Shogun sees that timecode correctly. It just doesn't pass that onto the MixPre or pass along any record trigger.

- IV
 
Thanks Ivan, now I atleast now that the shogun see the cameras timecode but does not pass it forward. I will try get the atomos team on this.
 
Ivan Verlaan said:
No, I'm not using external timecode. Without external TC, the Red still has timecode though. The camera generates TC, and the Shogun sees that timecode correctly. It just doesn't pass that onto the MixPre or pass along any record trigger.

- IV
Click to expand...

Hi arian Ivan, Atomos says firmly that they pass this trigger signal through HDMI out. But there is a setting on the output page what you have to turn on.
Did you turn it on?

Cheers!
Joel
 
Joel Arvidsson said:
Sounds like kind of good news, only problem is that I have still to find a way to get out the sdi triggering from the red to hdmi. So as long you have the triggering working you dont need accurate timecode for syncing the external recorded audio? correct?
Click to expand...

No one I know of, has specifically tackled this tricky problem of transforming an HDMI or SDI feed into a pure TC trigger.

You might get lucky and stumble on a product which will preserve the TC triggering as you go from a SDI to an HDMI conversion, but I dunno... I doubt it. And I can't offer any suggestions I know of.

Anyway, the whole point of TC triggering is not only will it auto start/stop the recording, but also additionally you'll always get the correct timecode passed along from the master.


Joel Arvidsson said:
Hi arian Ivan, Atomos says firmly that they pass this trigger signal through HDMI out. But there is a setting on the output page what you have to turn on.
Did you turn it on?

Cheers!
Joel
Click to expand...

This is your best hope!

Unfortunately both of my Atomos recorders lack any kind of outputs at all, so I can't try on mine.

Maybe Atomos doesn't pass it through when doing cross conversion? But only if doing straight pass through, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a "gotcha" like that.
 
I do t believe we will be able to powering the mixpre from the usb on the v-lock expander. Sources that has less power sets the mixpre in low power mode that disables some features as less phantom power inputs but also Disable HDMI TC port!.

So if you trying to get this to work, make sure to power the mixpre proper.
 
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