'Do it in camera' will be the new 'do it in post'

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Note: you can probably put this post in the 'para bellum' section.

People who can beatbox can imitate artificial sounds. We did not know this was possible until those artificial sounds were created, of course. But once they were created, people tried to imitate them, often successfully.

Visual effects were done with models before computers took over. In The Ten Commandments, molten wax was used to simulate the parting of the Red Sea. Some of the 'stargate' sequence in 2001 was done by filming chemicals reacting. Lots of films that involve water were done with scale models in water tanks, filmed in slow motion. All of Blade Runner's visuals are physical models, supplemented by compositing. The opening sequence is stunning - more so than the opening of A New Hope - although its opening sequence was also 100% physical models, too! And so on.

Improvements in robotics will help create realistic animals, which, like real human extras, can be filmed individually and then duplicated in post. That CGI bear in The Revenant is very nice, but wait until you see a robot do the same thing.

Have a look at this mirror cube - no computer graphics needed:

https://twitter.com/GoogleFacts/status/928789454516613120

Future Star Wars films will have real, physical light sabres in the hands of the actors, which will be cleaned up in post. Real light sabres? Well, yes - mechanical, telescopic light tubes which shine light onto actors' bodies. The digital artist's job will be to tidy the physical model, as opposed to the creation of the effect.

If you don't like this way of thinking, that's fine. Go and make an animated movie and dispense with the actors and film crews. At least your movie will have a character of its own, as opposed to trying to imitate reality.

 

[paulcurtis]

There are plenty of things that 'should be done in camera' that aren't and a lot that 'can only be done in post' or cheaper in post.

Recreate an ancient city then destroy it? In camera, really - we used to do that but it was a little inflexible, looked unrealistic with scale effects and once destroyed different to reset for take 2. A lot of these new blade runner models were seriously augmented with CG and post atmosphere. IMHO that was a vanity call, not a practical one.

Cast of 10,000 over a sweeping vista? Maybe possible but prohibitively expensive.

The lightsabers are sticks of light now anyway for interactive lighting, but a director would like to art direct the flashes and the glows.

Also a lot vfx physical effects are moving away from actual physical simulations of reality into AI based affairs which are easier to art direct, because you know real life can be a bit boring at times. Water, fire and so on are pretty untameable.

So whilst i see your point, i think you'd have to work in that industry to understand how things are done now and what's practical or efficient on a larger scale. Cost comes into it as well.

Real time rendering for VR is getting remarkably good. So i think you'll find in time we'll all be doing animated movies...

cheers
Paul

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Two words for you: vintage lenses. two more- anamorphic lenses.Insanely popular with prices going through the roof. That's about the easiest post trick there is yet nobody wants to do it. You can't be rational in our industry or you will be unemployed....

 

[Craig Parkes]

There isn't much logic to this - the need to do things in post arises predominately from a cheap and good and safe alternative not being available.

Key example, gun muzzle flashes. In some cases these are better captured in practice, but between rolling shutter issues and the work and safety issues of working guns and firing blanks on set, do it in post makes sense.

What you are describing is more 'enhance it on set' - like the fact that the Ghost Busters reboot had triggering lights in their proton pack props.

No one is ever going to create a functional in camera proton pack effect.

However the title of your thread created a more interesting thought I feel, which is the scope to which some VFX type work will be doable in camera in the near future because the camera is a computer.

Currently that camera as a computer can display LUTS but it can also desqueeze an anamorphic image in the display and carry this over as metadata for post to use (or not).

In future could RED or others add things like custom Lens Distortion Correction transforms into this metadata and display path, something that the DOP could dial in through a wifi connected device, and mess around with on set to create a unique look in the field? Some still cameras already have this feature for lenses they recognise when shooting stills.

That, to me, is a much more interesting and relevant discussion of what 'do it in camera' as an ethos could begin to mean.

 

[Eric Lange]

There isn't much logic to this - the need to do things in post arises predominately from a cheap and good and safe alternative not being available.

Key example, gun muzzle flashes. In some cases these are better captured in practice, but between rolling shutter issues and the work and safety issues of working guns and firing blanks on set, do it in post makes sense.

What you are describing is more 'enhance it on set' - like the fact that the Ghost Busters reboot had triggering lights in their proton pack props.

No one is ever going to create a functional in camera proton pack effect.

However the title of your thread created a more interesting thought I feel, which is the scope to which some VFX type work will be doable in camera in the near future because the camera is a computer.

Currently that camera as a computer can display LUTS but it can also desqueeze an anamorphic image in the display and carry this over as metadata for post to use (or not).

In future could RED or others add things like custom Lens Distortion Correction transforms into this metadata and display path, something that the DOP could dial in through a wifi connected device, and mess around with on set to create a unique look in the field? Some still cameras already have this feature for lenses they recognise when shooting stills.

That, to me, is a much more interesting and relevant discussion of what 'do it in camera' as an ethos could begin to mean.

That's kinda the area we are working in.

Trying to bring true high end photogrammetric precision to several different types of 'Off shelf" camera platforms to implement waaaaay better reality capture scenario for CG applications/hybrid.

CG has a number of limitations which usually get a lot worse in the S-3d environment. We have some terrific / ground breaking solutions for that.

Then also on higher end much bigger budget productions you start to see (in some cases) an intermediate type of model or set. Basically smaller than 1:1 set but a lot larger than typical miniatures/smaller scale models. So called "Opticals" but BIG

So for realism and texture and natural response to various forms of lighting and complexity thereof large scale "models" or smaller scale actuals / sets can be pretty nice.

But these days what can be accomplished relatively "Cheaply" by CG and motion control camera work is pretty wonderful. Wonderful for TV.


Film industry based new solutions can be very challenging for small companies trying to bring new tech, as on a big budget production everything has to work pretty flawlessly and if there is a "Bug" or a particular technical problem you have to be on site/location/on set at the drop of hat (wherever on planet Earth things may be going on). That's very demanding and as used to be said you are only as good as your last "Picture". So if you f'd up once then it can be "Game over". [Hasn't happened to me/us yet... But for any new tech it's better to set up a separate division to handle all of those (specific) demands (from the Film Industry) in a very complete way. So takes some time to get there. The film industry can be a tricky rabbit warren to hang one's future on as the only source of income and the decision to dive down that rabbit hole is one that should be given serious consideration as to other contingencies before one does that. There are technologies that can bridge that CG versus digital capture realm but to put that to the Film Business is not without risk. Not everything that can or could be brought to bear in this area IS brought to bear. Takes time.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

In the (amazing) video "The (home) making of the NINGYO" we learn that the filmmakers decided whether to use physical or virtual models based on a single criteria: what could they afford? Anything on "the expensive side" was done digitally. I think they made some great choices (which staying within their $60k-$80k budget).

 

[Dominik Muench]

I doubt Hollywood or the mainstream guys will go back to using as much "physical effects" as possible. the virtual deal is just a lot cheaper these days. Jim Henson would be turning in his grave.
Workplace health and safety has gotten so stringent, it almost isn't affordable anymore these days to have real fire/water or even bloody nagging actors on set....lets animate it all....unless you're Michael Bay of course....he can can still blow shit up and have fun.
I was on the sets of a few big productions shot here in Australia in the last few years (Pirates, Aquaman, Kong....) and guess what I saw....greenscreens and bluescreens covering the whole sound stages and not much else. Lets not forget just last year a stunt guy here was fatal shot on a music video shoot...after such episodes the virtual deal is what producers are going for and to a big extend, understandably so.

Personally I'm all for the old fashioned way, the 3D animated Yoda in episode I almost broke my heart and as a kid I really enjoyed touching the real Falkor from the never ending story at the bavaria studios, but yeah...I think these times are over :/

 

[Eric Lange]

I doubt Hollywood or the mainstream guys will go back to using as much "physical effects" as possible. the virtual deal is just a lot cheaper these days. Jim Henson would be turning in his grave.
Workplace health and safety has gotten so stringent, it almost isn't affordable anymore these days to have real fire/water or even bloody nagging actors on set....lets animate it all....unless you're Michael Bay of course....he can can still blow shit up and have fun.
I was on the sets of a few big productions shot here in Australia in the last few years (Pirates, Aquaman, Kong....) and guess what I saw....greenscreens and bluescreens covering the whole sound stages and not much else. Lets not forget just last year a stunt guy here was fatal shot on a music video shoot...after such episodes the virtual deal is what producers are going for and to a big extend, understandably so.

Personally I'm all for the old fashioned way, the 3D animated Yoda in episode I almost broke my heart and as a kid I really enjoyed touching the real Falkor from the never ending story at the bavaria studios, but yeah...I think these times are over :/

I agree partially with what you say... 100% safety,

BUT with some of these gigantic productions (literally) you don't always get to see what gets built where...

Don't forget a hell of a lot was shot on blue screen (before we had digital compositing/green screen/ blue screen again)... So "They" still had partial sets, as we do today shot against blue screen (or green chromakey) etc.

So funny you would mention pirates as I was specifically thinking of the part scale (very large scale) ships/models that were built and shot against chroma key (maybe flick through some old editions of Cinefex). Amazing real life three dimensional textures and the like and real complexity (which frankly CG still has trouble with in some instances).

Even on the Dark Crystal there were a number of partial sets that were built on the back lot at EMI (very high up, shot against the sky) that I think we would do pretty much that way today but the set/partial set (although very large) would be composited with digital backgrounds, much like what Ridley Scot did on Alien "Covenant"... In terms of look and texture and complex and natural lighting some physical elements have to exist.

As far as model making goes, I think in some instances older techniques have been forgotten, and also some CG techniques don't have a complete understanding of what should be... But that's what makes it fun to strive to close these gaps.

Personally, I don't buy 100% into the idea that everything can be done on "Green screen" 100%.

I have to admit the number of "Movie-Stars" doing considerable amount of stuff on "wire work"/ harnesses I think has increased pretty dramatically. I'm not sure we used to see so much of that.


[I remember at EMI/Boremwood/Elstree and Pinewood, massive Blue screen lit back drops for FILM (before digital) ... Almost daunting in their size and mind bending in their intensity of "ultra" "Blue" very intense lighting.

I remember my father complaining bitterly about the number trees that had to be built for Empire (Strikes Back), Nearly full size trees going making a forest that extends and goes out beyond the sound stage door. As a production designer or Art directors, they tend to get paranoid/very distressed when they see their entire budget disappearing on trees. And the stage sets for that still had painted backdrops (true scenic paintings very large) and the like. Massive amounts of time and labor to get the mossy and moldy textures right on the trees etc. etc. a lot of work.

Definitely today, one/we would still build a lot of trees, but definitely not as many (perhaps) lol.

[Apologies for randomness here ].

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I still think the break away set for crystal chamber in the Dark Crystal is still very remarkable indeed. That's the one where the triangular "flagstones" that make up the castle's crystal chamber start breaking away (from the ceiling and elsewhere) to reveal the full underlying back lit crystal /transparent quartz like surfaces... The set (if remember rightly) for that and effect was 1:1. Amazing! The complexity of natural light, although an other worldly effect and scenario, was remarkable (but maybe I should give it a second look) [Can't find a legal youtube clip of that specific physical effect and scene (I have it on blueRay)]. Some of the techniques we are developing capture naturally lit surface effects and deep optical/lighting effects... that are difficult to swing with more conventional CG approaches. Complexity and naturalism still present many challenges and I feel and know there are a number of ways to helpfully raise everyone's game in a really nice way through more advanced techniques, yet nice techniques that bring the best of physical film craft and CG together . [Time will tell].

_________________________________

Ten episode Dark Crystal TV re-boot ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO0WyIxDxhQ

 

[Dominik Muench]

true there are still a lot of physical sets too and I think the more the better.

I'd love to see a dark crystal reboot....but with built sets and puppets, not CG. that would be amazing ^^

 

[Eric Lange]

true there are still a lot of physical sets too and I think the more the better.

I'd love to see a dark crystal reboot....but with built sets and puppets, not CG. that would be amazing ^^

I think they are... That's the idea.

You want to talk about health and safety... Back in the day a lot of the foams they used were iso-cyanate based... And I have to say growing up probably inhaled a lot more polyester casting resin than a young'n should. I'm pretty sure Henson creature workshop have made all that very very safe these days. Once you get sensitized to a certain group of chemicals or solvents it can be pretty damn awful.

But on the textile and prop side you can do wonderfully detailed and amazing things that really make no sense to do with CG.

I think Dinotopia (series) Henson (relationship) was a really interesting and beautiful production that put CG center stage and also I really loved what Henson Org. did with Gulliver's travels... Close to Swift's book (fabulous cast). So very subtle and useful blend of effects and early-ish CG that still stands up quite / very well.

IME folks in film AND television on balance are VERY pragmatic without being overly dogmatic. [Yes there are a few famous egos], but otherwise pretty much folks go for whatever combination of things that makes the most sense balanced against visually what they may set out to do that's new or striking (within time and budget). I personally like very very subtle effects; I think "Forrest Gump" really made large what use of CG related techniques can be brought to support the narrative and story telling.

I think in a lot of cases CG "Style" (outside of straight up animation) has become it's own set of styles that are not necessarily truly photo-realistic but in their own right contain a certain illustrative quality. Sometimes it's good to challenge your observations and perceptions (as an artist or photographer would) rather than necessarily slide into current illustrative genres of CG as being the new visual "Norm". Sometimes good to get away from the rendering "pipeline" and do some real art or observation from the real world, just to see how light, form and texture and complex reflections and shadow, and deep and complex optical effects and atmospherics sometimes really go or "decide" to present themselves... I'm lucky as I spend a fair amount of time in New Mexico, and in the very dramatic country side, as the air can be so clear and pin sharp and the quality of light is astounding, but almost every evening when I go for walk I always see something new (usually towards sunset or dusk) that I have never seen before, and I have been here on and off over ten years (it's odd as the air is pin sharp but there is also a lot of dust, so that can create weird effects too). So I always bring my phone with me to capture an new "Atmospheric" or new lightening condition or situation or texture or optical experience ... So hopefully HYDROGEN/RH1 will be the thing I carry around to capture such things in the near future.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinotopia_(miniseries)
^^^If you scroll down to "Production" it pretty much lays it all out with, FrameStore for CG (that did the very superb "Walking with Dinosaurs") and also Henson creature shop, and also a lot of partial sets built and shot at Pinewood, amongst many other things... (wonderful things). [Disney/Hallmark production].

 

[Eric Lange]

In the (amazing) video "The (home) making of the NINGYO" we learn that the filmmakers decided whether to use physical or virtual models based on a single criteria: what could they afford? Anything on "the expensive side" was done digitally. I think they made some great choices (which staying within their $60k-$80k budget).

Thanks(so much) for posting this... I should dig deep on that, very interesting! (For $80K that's beyond amazing)... Really love the concept artwork too. Overall there's a very forward looking approach for what's next (media wise)... Important stuff.

As far as the $80K that assumes only (perhaps) material costs. AND I'm guessing for the most part no-body got paid. Tricky area with SAG/Union rules etc., that such a thing normally would or could be half a million. [Food for thought].

 

[MiguelOrtega]

Thanks(so much) for posting this... I should dig deep on that, very interesting! (For $80K that's beyond amazing)... Really love the concept artwork too. Overall there's a very forward looking approach for what's next (media wise)... Important stuff.

As far as the $80K that assumes only (perhaps) material costs. AND I'm guessing for the most part no-body got paid. Tricky area with SAG/Union rules etc., that such a thing normally would or could be half a million. [Food for thought].

I guess no one better to answer these questions. We paid all our actors since they were Union. Getting non union actors was never an option.

As for the rest of the $$ My wife and I left our (vfx) jobs and worked on this for nearly 3 years EVERY DAY, obviously we didn't get paid anything. The crew knew that we were in deep and they all jumped in to help when they could. Its worth noting: If you watch the making of, there were days when the actor was operating the camera himself (the door opening shot). The focus puller (if needed) was whoever was standing by. Some of the actors would freak out when they saw how we did things because it looked so lame and cheap.


But you're correct if we add what our salaries alone would have been as VFX artists for 3 years this would be a veeeeery expensive short.
luckily I always knew this was the long term goal (directing fantasy films) so we learned how to do vfx.

I can't recommend learning the basics of VFX enough. Learning "nuke" is very empowering.
any other questions feel free to ask.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I think I'm going to stick to drawing crude animations in the margins of paperback books. ;-)

 

[Eric Lange]

I guess no one better to answer these questions. We paid all our actors since they were Union. Getting non union actors was never an option.

As for the rest of the $$ My wife and I left our (vfx) jobs and worked on this for nearly 3 years EVERY DAY, obviously we didn't get paid anything. The crew knew that we were in deep and they all jumped in to help when they could. Its worth noting: If you watch the making of, there were days when the actor was operating the camera himself (the door opening shot). The focus puller (if needed) was whoever was standing by. Some of the actors would freak out when they saw how we did things because it looked so lame and cheap.


But you're correct if we add what our salaries alone would have been as VFX artists for 3 years this would be a veeeeery expensive short.
luckily I always knew this was the long term goal (directing fantasy films) so we learned how to do vfx.

I can't recommend learning the basics of VFX enough. Learning "nuke" is very empowering.
any other questions feel free to ask.

I did notice on the "Making of" exactly that "If you watch the making of, there were days when the actor was operating the camera himself (the door opening shot). The focus puller (if needed) was whoever was standing by"

Believe me I understand very well what it means to take a very substantial risk on a very long arc (and not get paid / per se, but the pay off is designed to be substantial and long lasting (hopefully)). So we have some tech that probably you guys are going to like when we fully launch. But I have to admit I'm waaaay more interested in what you guys have done.

"But you're correct if we add what our salaries alone would have been as VFX artists for 3 years this would be a veeeeery expensive short."

That was my immediate thought. 100%.

You will have to forgive me as too often I don't come up for air long enough to see what such wonderful work folks are all doing these days. Following my instincts there's really something there... (as I say) as an approach to future media. Some really wonderful imagery and real understanding there.

Let me do my homework and then maybe I come back with some questions that actually makes sense rather than waste your time. Or just me asking really stupid questions, when there may be some better framed questions that might reach for something a bit more useful.


Thanks so much for chiming in, meanwhile I do my homework

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Funny actually as I have worked on paleontological digs at Ghost Ranch New Mexico several seasons running with a mix of "Grad" students , but the host "Paleontologist" was into Crypto-Zoological happenings and an over identification with "Big-foot/sash quash" Which indeed made things professionally extremely awkward...

Forgive me for asking what is the most Politically correct means and channel to watch the full animation/short? Vimeo? Other means or channel ? (like we need RED Channel like yesterday)? Or at least what method financially benefits you guys even in small measure?

 

[Eric Lange]

I guess no one better to answer these questions. We paid all our actors since they were Union. Getting non union actors was never an option.

As for the rest of the $$ My wife and I left our (vfx) jobs and worked on this for nearly 3 years EVERY DAY, obviously we didn't get paid anything. The crew knew that we were in deep and they all jumped in to help when they could. Its worth noting: If you watch the making of, there were days when the actor was operating the camera himself (the door opening shot). The focus puller (if needed) was whoever was standing by. Some of the actors would freak out when they saw how we did things because it looked so lame and cheap.


But you're correct if we add what our salaries alone would have been as VFX artists for 3 years this would be a veeeeery expensive short.
luckily I always knew this was the long term goal (directing fantasy films) so we learned how to do vfx.

I can't recommend learning the basics of VFX enough. Learning "nuke" is very empowering.
any other questions feel free to ask.

Take 2.

(Apologies for length).

OK managed to watch Ningyo, + making of, + kickstrater (pitch (very very good BTW)). + Green Ruby Pumpkin.

[Side joke here... My father always said and always told people NEVER invite a film crew to your home... (As obviously pretty much everything gets trashed, + cables everywhere); but astonishing that you and your wife turned your living room into a for "reelz" set! + production facility for three years.


Obviously the creature work is outstanding without question... Really phenomenal and (secretly hoping you got to do things your way design wise/creature wise; love those sequences). [Under-water sequences are phenomenal ... Very memorable , imagery that really "Sticks" to the cortex, pretty much forever!].
REALLY LOVE the production artwork too... Big time. (wish I could see more of that, and also the artwork for the beginning title sequences intro and credits. Love the luster and shadow and detail of the silver leaf Japanese parchment type paintings at the beginning and how that was "lit". Really like your mature approach to music... Very much appreciated. [Made me think of those beautiful title sequences from "Marco-Polo" beautiful ink / wash effect that you can watch again and again].

(So many talking points/key points... impossible).


[Funny / odd co-incidence , back in the early 90's John Hues came to view (open house) VR project I had going at the Getty (conservation institute/GCI) at the time. We had a SGI onyx reality Engine II and were working with Italian company (Infobyte) on some stuff we were jamming together for Tomb of Tutankhamun, and Tomb of Nefetari and some other stuff too like Saint Peter's Basilica. I had done a lot of seminal work in imaging and also Digital in field capture. But it was at that time I was offered the opportunity to do Ph.D at Cambridge University in the UK to further work on full 3d reality capture and integrated photogrammetric techniques (for recording cultural heritage sites and monuments to unparalleled degree of complexity and detail in an efficient way). So kinda disappeared for the better part of a decade+ but came out of that with a bunch of patents and pretty substantial code base to implement things + physical engineering (working towards right now). So I'm baaaack lol. I totally agree about the Foudary and nuke. Back then I made the decision that we would initially create stand alone software of our own and not end up as a "plug in" for Foundry. I'm originally from the U.K. so I'm naturally a big fan of theirs (and like very much their approach)... But wanted independent engineering and Software capabilities of our own as our core tech has so many applications in other related industries). So we can license or do tech transfer when and if appropriate. But definitely big thumbs up/fan of Foundry/Nuke.].

Back to Ningyo:

I have to admit virtually the first frame of Ningyo (making of) it was impossible to not be reminded of the early interactive game of MYST (in a good way, not in a derivative way).

Shooting straight from the hip,

1. Has anyone approached you/ your team to turn "Ningyo" into a non-linear narrative like a very high end and mature and complex interactive "Game"/experience ?

The reason I ask is that in the final sequences in "Ningyo" you feel like you want to explore, you want to open the books and manuscripts or play with these bizarre Orrories (sp), you want to delve deep, and explore and uncover clues, or unlock mysteries oneself... Almost as the Crypto-paleontologist protagonist, as well as study the behavior of these amazing creatures. It's almost frustrating to be a sort of "Passive" voyeur (or invisible travelling companion), rather than an active participant in the mystery and potential complex adventure? [Detail is amazing. It's almost a shame to be denied the experience of being able to explore more deeply the world you guys have created? YKWIM? ].

[Ironically the tech we have can re-render synthetic data sets as well as s-3d live captured imagery. [Basically a particular form of what we call a Coherently Stereo Textured Model... (CSTM) + other benefits]. Basically it renders 400 times more efficiently than conventional data sets and nothing is visually lost from the original imagery. Computationally very efficient as you don't have to push around that many polygons. Natural surface lighting effects in s-3d captured too + any atmospherics or particle effects (real) or synthetic. When viewed in s-3d, completely life like to a very uncommon and almost extreme degree and yet be very subtle to be almost transcendent/non "Computery" looking (and it's real time)].

2. Do you guys still have your living room as a set? And associated elements?

3. Are there or are there plans to further the project?

(Are you guys taking a well earned break ?)... I hope so.

4. Most important question, what are you most proud of as an animator (for your work in Ningyo) ? & What are you most proud of as director for your work in Ningyo?



5. What really exceeded your expectations and what did you find that you were able to accomplish that you thought at the beginning of the project would be almost impossible?


Also thinking of the possibility for something for Hydrogen/RH1... (but that may not be of any interest to you guys).
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BTW I did happen to read all the credits so thankfully more than a few people carried out the 3d modeling , texturing, and compositing (but maybe phased and not all at the same time). Obviously a lot of you guys wear many different hats really well, 10 people in your art department, crew 9-10, 4 additional animators, 3D model/texture, 7 people, maybe 15 additional folks who seem to mysteriously have very similar names to the rest of the credits . [I was thinking how on earth can three animators pull that off in 3 years with original material (with or without sleep + stimulants), but as is, I can see the many many thousands of hours of work (and very very very long hours), that you have done that would normally take a team of 25+ animators to pull off. Your stamina and passion is no doubt already a legend. When I was in LA in the 90's and newly married I always wondered which one of us would end up dead on the production room floor for having worked too many "36" hour days; another good reason to have gone to the UK for a while ;-) ].

I really applaud your conviction and vision 100% Such beautiful work.

 

[MiguelOrtega]

Hey Eric, I used to work for John Hues t R&H so its cool to hear your story. That stuff sounds right up my alley.We did a lot of photogrammetry for the underwater rocks.

"I have to admit virtually the first frame of Ningyo (making of) it was impossible to not be reminded of the early interactive game of MYST (in a good way, not in a derivative way)."

Although I was never an avid Myst player I was 100% influenced early on by the art of Myst books. This was the first "cg" art of books i owned.
I see it as a compliment and I have been told this many times.


1. Has anyone approached you/ your team to turn "Ningyo" into a non-linear narrative like a very high end and mature and complex interactive "Game"/experience ?

Yes a game company in Texas has already reached out to us. Were in very early stages so not sure what will happen. Would be super cool


2. Do you guys still have your living room as a set? And associated elements?
We kept some of the furniture but integrated it into our normal house. Our living room looks like the house from The "40 year old virgin". I am a recovering toy collector (past tense only because Im now broke as hell) Sideshow toys owns my soul

3. Are there or are there plans to further the project?
(Are you guys taking a well earned break ?)... I hope so.
Yes the plan now is to make a feature film. This project landed us representation at CAA which was life changing. Within months we were sitting in rooms with some of the most legendary producers around. We picked a partner who we felt best represented what we wanted to achieve and hope to announce all the details as soon as we lock down our writer (which we think we may have already found). Hopefully by end of January.

4. Most important question, what are you most proud of as an animator (for your work in Ningyo) ? & What are you most proud of as director for your work in Ningyo?
A lot of the stuff we were doing both in VFX and live action production we had never done before so I am just glad with everything we've learned. I feel the next thing we do will be superior. As anyone who creates stuff, I see all the errors. But I feel had I seen this before we started Id be thrilled. But I know we can do so much better next time. I look forward to NOT having to physically do the vfx myself but have a team by my side. We physically can't do this like this again.


5. What really exceeded your expectations and what did you find that you were able to accomplish that you thought at the beginning of the project would be almost impossible?

Almost all of it. Any 1 thing is a nightmare in hindsight. We really jumped in the fire on this. The costumes, The script being half in japanese. Driving Model Ts. VFX shots with 80+ digital characters with cloth simulations and hair. But the biggest "accomplishment" for me was the ability to work with actors. They did all the work but I am just glad I didn't botch their process.

BTW I did happen to read all the credits so thankfully more than a few people carried out the 3d modeling , texturing, and compositing (but maybe phased and not all at the same time). Obviously a lot of you guys wear many different hats really well, 10 people in your art department, crew 9-10, 4 additional animators, 3D model/texture, 7 people, maybe 15 additional folks who seem to mysteriously have very similar names to the rest of the credits .

85-90% of the VFX was done by Tran (my wife) Myself, Chris Bosjatnick who ran the 3D face rigs and Alon Hellman as character animation.
The other 10-15% we had friends jump in and do 1 model each and then run for the hills once they realized how much work was left. Doing a single CG skeleton can take a long time since its hundreds of bones. But at the end its just 1 skeleton in a room filled with different skeletons and artifacts.

Same thing applies to Art Department.

On the practical side. Tran Ma is a beast she handled costumes (many are custom made. The rest are acquired from antique pieces). She handled the overall Production design. I shot most of the non dialogue stuff because our cinematography wasn't local. He shot whatever was crucial to not fuck up. The real good stuff is his.


I really applaud your conviction and vision 100% Such beautiful work.
Thank you so much Eric! Really appreciate it!

If anyone is interested in more info we did a podcast with Chaos Group makers of Vray rendering software.
We go through everything. Not just vfx https://www.chaosgroup.com/blog/miguel-ortega-the-ningyo

 

[MiguelOrtega]

I think I'm going to stick to drawing crude animations in the margins of paperback books. ;-)

Hey nothing wrong with that

 

[Eric Lange]

Hey Eric, I used to work for John Hues t R&H so its cool to hear your story. That stuff sounds right up my alley.We did a lot of photogrammetry for the underwater rocks.

<Snips various> ,<But all really good >


I really applaud your conviction and vision 100% Such beautiful work.
Thank you so much Eric! Really appreciate it!

If anyone is interested in more info we did a podcast with Chaos Group makers of Vray rendering software.
We go through everything. Not just vfx https://www.chaosgroup.com/blog/miguel-ortega-the-ningyo

Not just vfx https://www.chaosgroup.com/blog/miguel-ortega-the-ningyo

^^^^ THIS ^^^ AMAZING ^^^^^^ Very well worth listening too... I'm so glad I was able to find time /carve out time to take that in.

So many parallels and co-incidences (almost bizarre)... More than I could possibly shake a stick at, even if I was a multi armed deity with an impressive collection of sticks and had just recently completed a special certificate course in "Shaking things at other things", it would not even come close.

I'll PM you maybe in the next few days (when proper time is found, with contact details).


Personally, if it was me , I'd be trying to create a development path where one of it's principal target landing points IS an Episodic (high budget) TV/multi series type production... Of an HBO/Netflix type "Ilk".


Personally (also) I think the basic initial "Vectors" of the fundamental story lines hinted at by "Episode 1" really deserve complex and detailed narratives (of their own) that interweave in and out of each other. I.e. Multi-episodic so that the audience/fan base is led by the hand through compelling and complex ideas but in essence they accrete these complex issues, conundrums, and ethical dilemmas etc. over time, with individual arcs that can span three or four episodes or entire seasons. You really can't smash that many ideas into a 90 minute cinematic presentation without losing your audience, apart from a dedicated "Cult" (in a good way) fan base. You either have to "Dumb it down" for a cinematic feature and loose a lot of the ideas you may really love, or figure out another way to fully develop the "World" of "The Ningyo". So that's why (IMO/only my 2c) Episodic / multi series high budget production would seem to be the natural home and habitat for The Ningyo. Is there not an almost insatiable demand for such things?

"If it were me", I'd also be very wary of a lower-ish budget full feature for The Ningyo (under $20M in spite of a more efficient film making mind-set and capability for a budget sensitive production). I know I'm straying into risky territory here, but (not mentioning names or productions etc.), I have witnessed in the past a terrific script with incredible and incredibly important ideas suddenly become completely butchered whilst in production. Directors getting fired/quitting, and on set and on location script re-writes being hurriedly made simply because the core ideas become challenged, not because of budget oversights. What I would describe as a mid-production thematic "Pivot". That's a pretty horrible outcome if you really love the ideas and themes that underpin a particular script.

I really understand the hideous position of having to trust your work that you have been very close to, to "Others". It's scary as hell to lose control of something that you have a real vision for... BUT on the other hand (in my own "Odd" experience) looking back and being very honest, that absolutely nothing in my life has gone to "Plan", but have always remained reasonably flexible and have always been able to turn a negative into a positive that advanced particular projects way beyond anything I could have initially imagined. (Sometimes if my future self paid me a visit and tapped me on the shoulder and said "Dude!"... "This is what you will be doing next year"... I would say to my future self, "You are definitely smoking 'Crack'!", as sometimes it is still hard to imagine how such "Dots" actually connect even if someone could show you the future). Without being overly philosophical, sometimes we don't completely understand the path or vector we are on and sometimes the long term and very large scale view and picture is the only vantage point that actually makes any real sense and makes all the smaller pieces fit together (as they should). Short term uncertainty is very difficult for people to deal with, especially in "Media" related businesses. That's why intuition without "Magical thinking" can be your best guide.

That's kinda why I think interactive media (to begin with) like very complex narrative based "Video game" (I don't like that term), would potentially be a very good vehicle ( and also possibly be very lucrative) to explore all the things that you want to explore... (Assuming the look and notional production values, in some sense can be preserved in actuality or stylistically). Then after that it's a lot easier to "Bank role" a really high budget feature. [I'm not going to make direct parallels to "Tomb Raider" , or assassin's Creed and so on, the genre you are dealing with is quite different in "Spirit" and tone.]. Really depends on what you guys "Team Ningyo" want the "Product life cycle" of "The Ningyo" to be? I know that sounds horrible "Product" and "Life cycle" but if you love The Ningyo I'm sure you guys have mapped out all possible future outcomes. Do you want to be "Married to" the project for a decade or more of your life? That's also a difficult question or is a Ningyo style project a stepping stone for a larger vision you might have "Under your hat" or a plurality of hats thus mounted to sticks and artfully jostled accordingly ;-) * .

In general it's one of the most difficult questions... to Know what you really want? By hanging onto what you really want... do you end up shooting yourself in the foot or do you just glide along with much larger entities that don't 100% "Get it" in some cases? Unless you have amazing legal representation (especially for matters related to IP), the size of some of these entities are such that a panel of suits turn up from "Corporation X" and say... "OK. This is how we want to do things, this IS how we do things, we think this is a fair shake...", (and it probably is), but otherwise you have absolutely no wiggle room or say beyond that. Quite daunting (i.e. agree to the generous or fair terms, or be run over by a massive juggernaut... "Pick one." lol/not lol. So there is definitely a risk in maintaining complete control and sometimes the rationale for maintaining such control only makes sense when trying to map out much longer term outcomes that can play very heavily to your advantage. But takes a lot of balls to stick to the bigger or longer term plan. [Long story short (without being too abstract or vague (too late)); it's all a bit like a poker game where year on year the "Pot" is raised and the bets get bigger and bigger, and at some point you ask yourself will you follow it through to the end or cash-out earlier on for a potentially easier life..? (Meanwhile holding all the risk that these things could crash and burn without warning, (and other badly mixed metaphors)). A very well thought out set of contingencies and Plan B's are super important I think, and quite often the "Plan B's" work out way better than any supposed plan A's (at least in retrospect, either creatively or as a business venture). ]

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


BTW I really loved the interview, VERY funny too and very honest... Christopher Nichols (excellent) + sidekick I have to look much harder to find the credit (cough cough), + Chaos group.

Good plug for Nuke, and also nice mentions of Maya and even 3d studio max... These day's I have more of a hand on CAD/CAM type software(s)... But as my "Media technology" requirement I try to keep up and use what everybody is using; I even used to do stuff on some of the earliest versions of "Softimage" and Maya and it's really almost unbelievable what Autodesk had done with snapping up all these companies (past decade or more). Gnomon is an amazing resource without doubt.

So Vray... Will definitely check it out! /dig deep on that

________________________________

*(Side note) [I really love that effect BTW (the many top-hats) looks fantastic! Sad to say I actually own a top hat** for reelz for (Royal Ascot), so in the royal enclosure when you sit down for lunch typically you are required to remove your top hat when inside... Is a lecture hall an internal space where one would be required to remove one's hat? Like a church or restaurant or concert hall?... , Maybe these "Colonials" are a little different from the Royal institution lectures (in London) during the "Belle Époque" or earlier. Never the less a brilliant solution to the problem. Very masterful.

** I have never felt the need to mount or glue a brass gear to my top hat either (or an I-phone) ... I think you are 100% spot on about design approach versus "Notions" of Steam-Punk versus actual "Steam"... (side note French movie "Ridicule" had some good early diving helmet "Vignettes" (earlier period than The Ningyo) as part of the plot... That you might be interested in also/worth checking out.).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Note: you can probably put this post in the 'para bellum' section.
..

Plus the rest of Karim's post.

Hi Karim mate. I'm a bit lost. The title says to do it in camera, then you talk about physical effects Infront of camera. But I get your drift, that you are talking about what can be done in future. I've got a bit of a headache from trying to read this thread, and skipped a large part of it. But here goes.

Originally people tried to do the image so it was lit framed and focused in camera instead of post.

Magnetic processing is said to be upto 1 million times more efficient and cruder versions are coming, and some quantum/optical can do certain things more. So theoretically a camera could apply effects on set, but how long is a piece of string. Unless it had good AI, it is less likely to be such a good thing as in post, but you could readily interact with objrct models and lighting real time to refine actor placement. But the variability of the possibilities and the changes that happen make it's general use complicated. So, unless you do a lot of it as an animation (as I wanted to do when young), is not so useful. But with that magnetic computing power, my old dream of directing a movie from a desk has become easier. Instead of taking 5 years of hard slog, AI could make it a lot easier, one day. So, the other option is to do it on set in simulation. But we don't have a holodeck, even though there is 3D volumetric projection which I was told passed through here decades ago. However, until that emerges (not saying it would be safe to be around) here are some other options that go along with what you are saying.

Claytronics (or my spin, bead/block electronics). Intel has been working on a version for years. You program the nanobots and they self assemble into a model. To be safe, any part of the set or surfaces and coatings, you don't touch. You program and it self assembles in a SciFi looking way (Terminator 2 style), one-day. Maybe it can mechanically, eventually, be made to be rigid and supporting. You can drop down plastic bricks to make the basic shape for them to hang off of. They should be able to be self coloured and self emitting light if needed (dynamically coloured paint has been since the 80's I think). There you go, dynamic environment and lighting interactions to suite your tastes and changes. But thinking about it, there is even a better way, stemming off some of my previous ideas. Yep, even better again, investor worthy?

Next, hopefully reusable, printed sets, even movable controls on something like a ship. After you finish using them for good, recycle them, use them to print something else. The print mechanisms I had been looking at doing are very high-speed, but these sorts of things have already started in industry. Now, lego style you could also print, and use those plastic bricks again for basic structure. However, with careful use, it can be structurally sound to use. The blocks can be color change.

Now, painting the 3D printing, robot controlled automatic printing over the top, like inkjet. You can even use this for a big back drop painted scenes, and similar for makeup. The paint can be removable to recyle the bricks.

I've done a lot of drafting thinking for designs to replace most crew, for small productions.

Anyway, battery is going out. I'll have to update this later.

Ok re-edit:

Now, you can do live virtual dybamic sets with photorealistic image/lighting (the photorealistic thing is a bit of a cheat, as photofilm wasn't that great when I came up with the technique). Once the computer industry gets it's head out of the clouds, AI might work for characters. The magnetic computing technology is a great potential for this. The AI in the industry seems fundamentally flawed. I've been thinking of AI since before I was 8, and my current theory of mind I started when I was 12 or less. The cutting edge research seems to follow my older versions of the model. Using the right model delivers better results for less hardware processing. However, life experiences and learning, is a lot of interactive data consuming a lot of hardware space, but not all of that is necessary for a virtual character, and much can be folded/shared between characters. The more bit character you have, the less they may need. So may well be possible on silicon and even in processing architectures today. I'm not a AI expert, O, give it not much thought since I was a teenager, but sometimes realise something and refine my model. However, I know the model and direction. But AI should be lifeless servitude. This, however, is for simulation purposes. Morally, my latest thinking defines the definition of life, and we should be.very careful with AI and other such things. We may indecisively create life that shouldn't have been created or existed, and the best and moral thing to do is to delete. This gets to be a real moral quandary the further along, which we should avoid getting into.

Now, dynamic simulation of fine grained volumetric physics and photo realistic rendering real-time in a desktop. This is possible today through my designs. There is no other system I know of anywhere near it, it is best. The whole industry maybe decades behind. I have been working towards it since a mid 80's brainstorm off and on. It might represent 6 months of work, but the industry has taken decades to get this far. Don't be fooled.

The compression routines I can't quantify, as you can calculate things like the above, but things like high efficiency compression and rendering are dynamic according to the picture. So, I'm hoping at least average 1000:1 lossless or maybe visually lossless compression. But that could be 100:1 in reality. That is a big messy compression routine to write worthy of a decade of effort by a team. I ussually do a Scottie and tell people I'm hoping for at lesst 10x less (or some other ratio) which is true, than what I am aiming for at the top end. This is definitely noiseless too (all noise removed). I would be embarrassed if 10:1 lossless wasn't archievable by a simpler routine. My compression ideas span different dataset types and high speed retrieval. So, the data for a simulation, even vegetation, could be reasonably compact. However, the industry is full of people that haven't done this. So, unless I get a billon/hundred million/s behind me, it is unfortunatly not likely to be done soon to this level, in this computing age. So, next generation we might see stuff that looks more dynamic expressive and reasoned live on set (basically, you can do it from a room with vr/ar probably).

With silicon I've come up with techniques to increase performance density likely 100-1000x. But my massive array of cores concept doesn't translate very well into accelerating normal processing tasks accross them (code tends to be highly unparallel, so no 1000x speed up accross the array on many types of code). But AI and particular image processing is highly parrallelable, so a massive speed up is possible, depending on the task. Now, I'm talking about silicon arrays going from hundreds of thousands of cores, to hundreds of millions of cores (more likely upto millions in a high end die size used now/coming years). I had wanted to do wafer sized cuts for PC mainboards, enabling such massive counts, but magnetic will outdate that. Magnetic, I can't add much to it, except I'm theorising about ways to hit the full Thz ability of a certain technology and maybe a 10x increase in performance for certain tasks again, as magnetic pushes the boundaries of what is possible already. To best that I have another quantum computer theory that came to be in a dream (no, the rest didn't, only about three top end solutions came that way) and took a while before I got there (literally worked it out and realised that something I figured out inadvertently also was the answer in an obscure way).

So, yes, answers are out there, but you can't helps lot of people, they have to do it the hardway.

Side note:

I've come to the realisation in recent years of a much more versatile way to design a computer that possibly will result in a new level of mass production savings. Some of it is related to my previous theorising, but the truth is that it is likely to be many times more possibly for many times less. It will be interesting to see how far past 1000:1 it can be pushed next decade. You could literally end up with a tablet 1000x more powerful than your your workstation for less than $1000 in todays terms. This means wearable computing on set many times more powerful than your workstation. It will take a lot of time for me to figure out a cheap manufacturing process to maximise this. Ahh, there is and idea from last decade for self assembly. Still will require a lot of time to figure out how to achieve it.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Finished the update to the last post. You will find some things you wouldn't think possible.