Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

DIT Pre-Pro questions

Still working on what I was going to post, just haven't had much time and then I keep getting sidetracked by other discussions here....

Jay A. Kelley said:
I would like you all to chime in on Dustin's post.

Do you all agree that the DIT main job is NOT Data Management but color work on the footage and Tech Support for the camera?
Click to expand...

Hmm... That's a tough one. I agree and yet I don't. The DIT is really responsible for the image/footage and checking it for anomalies, ensuring the integrity of that image. As far as I'm concerned, the image data is the primary focus of the DIT, with one exception. That exception is when the production has a dedicated data technician or data manager that assumes the responsibility of image data. On larger productions there can be multiple DIT personnel, as well as loaders and/or data techs.

Ultimately, the responsibilities of the DIT in terms of data management are all contract items that need to be clearly defined before hiring the DIT or before someone accepts a job as DIT. These are all skills and capabilities that any DIT should be able to handle, but their responsibilities will vary from one production to another.

Simply brushing off data management / data integrity to a junior position or a digital loader seems kinda silly to me. Data integrity is arguably one of the most important, if not the most important, support positions in a production environment. This is not a junior position, this is a a position of responsibility. I carry insurance for my data management so if I eFF things up on a $2M+ production and I get sued, I've got coverage. Likewise, if it's my own production and I'm paying out of pocket to hire someone to manage my footage / image data and ensure its integrity, that person better be fully qualified, insured and able to provide the necessary skill set and equipment package to do the job. Does that sound like a junior position to you?

A digital loader is a junior position. That's the person who shuttles the media around, offers an extra set of hands while the 1AC / cam-op is swapping media, etc..
 
Local 600 here in the states (yes that doesn't matter outside Amercia) requires productions to hire a DIT for camera setup and coloring, but the production can hire a digital loader at a much lower rate to download digital media.

I agree that downloading media is more important than coloring on set, but by definition, that is not the primary responsibility of the DIT.

The problem is too many digital loaders call themselves DITs, and that devalues all the other stuff a proper DIT knowes and does.

I download footage on almost every show I do. Just pointing out the definition according to the union.

I know of TV shows where the DIT works every other episode because of alternating DPs, one wants a DIT and one doesn't, but the digital loader works every episode.

I like the secure the image from camera to post.


Dusty
 
Uh oh... Tom got me...

Uh oh... Tom got me...

Tom.Wong said:
I'm sensing DIT 101 dvd and blu ray :)
Click to expand...

Busted… Tom outed me. Yes my friends, I am in pre production on DIT101 DVD (Not sure about BluRay yet). This was actually thought of 2 years ago, but some friends on here who are professional DITs REALLY hated the idea cause, in the words of one “I don’t really want to train people to do my job” That plus the fact that technology had not really developed caused me to shelve it for a while.

Well now I am seeing a new problem arise. Producers, directors and DPs are complaining that a lack of standards, experience, and equipment models are making it very hard to find good DITs, and the ones that want to learn the position have no way to get up to speed..

In short, demand is growing faster than good people are getting it.. And as you also know, it’s an expensive gig to get into depending on the path you take.

So, I’ve have some talks with Maxx Digital, and Michael over at LightIron about getting this project off the ground. The task is incredibly complicated, as you can tell just from reading this discussion.

My conversation / interview with all of you is but one of many steps along the way I am pursuing to get this process nailed down. We expect shooting to begin in late Dec.

As with the RED101, this DVD will not be the end all be all of “how to be a DIT” that will not be possible. What I HOPE it will be, is a place to start. Those of you that have seen the RED101 know I am not an arrogant person, I do not try to pass off my word as the final one.. I simply offer one path of many on the road to experience.

We plan to have overviews of the tasks of the DIT, as well as showing off various cart configurations and the like. Of course, it will be loaded.. I won’ t be surprised if it’s another 2 disc set.

AND (This is the cool part I was teasing you all with) I had thought, since some of you have been SO VERY HELPFUL that we could also feature PHOTOS of all of you working with your rigs on the DVD (We’ll be sure to put your names and also contact info if you wish). You most likely saw Noah’s post on this. We’re going to do this for sure.

But then, we got another idea.. This is a little nuts, but some of you just might like it.. If you want you can even shoot a short 1-4min video of you with your cart, and you can go over your cart and show it off. IF (And this can be a fairly large “if”) it looks cool and fits what we are doing, we’ll put it into the DVD in its own section. Our DVDs are pretty high quality, so if you were to take this path, you’d need to do some nice lighting, good sound, and put it on a format we can work with. We’re still working out the details of this, but it could be a great win/win for everyone. On my side, it shows my audience a lot of different systems and configurations, and that helps.. It also shows them REAL DITs in “person”. Guys (and girls) who do this for a living, and are nice people. This makes the entire concept a more comfortable one. On your side, you are getting a 1-3 min INFORMERCIAL on you and your kit which will go ALL OVER THE WORLD! Not bad.

The more you share, the more I will feature you. If you go nuts and really give us a lot of stuff to use, we may (once again do not hold me to this) even feature the picture of our largest contributors somewhere on the box of the DVD itself.

This is going to be a HUGE project. So it takes a lot of research.. But we are on the move.. It is happening.


So now you know. This is what we’re working on. And this is why I am running this discussion.. So far you have all be incredibly helpful! It is my hope that by brining my “Master Plan” to light, more DITs on here will get involved.
Of course those on REDuser are getting a big taste of the DVD just by reading this thread.. That’s perfectly fine with me.. I love this community and if this helps people, that’s great. Besides I have a lot more which will be on the DVD.

Devon at Maxx Digital is one of the guys I am working with on a day to day basis on this, they are very good at building carts and will be very helpful in this project hopefully he may jump in at some point.. Also I am hopeful that Michael at Light Iron will show his face at some point also.

Ok so tell me what you think….

You likey? :emote_popcorn:

Jay
 
jay,

thanks for your update - i likey ;-)

i would love to contribute to the discussion, but at the moment i am working almost night and day ... anyway, there is a lot of great input and discussion on this thread - thanks again for starting it and all the people contributing already!

best wishes,
martin
 
I'm all for it. I'm not the type of person that believes in protecting a job by not sharing information. I think it's an outdated practice and proven that it doesn't work. Not everybody has the talent, capacity, work ethic, and willingness to do the job right. Just like any other trade, a Colorist isn't just learning how to use the software, it's the natural talent for it too. Clients will pick you for who you are, and what YOU bring to the table. Not just the equipment and a little bit of technical know how. It will be good to have a proper resource to go to to know what are standard practices, how to properly handle yourself in the business, and ultimately expectations. Demystifying the trade might hopefully push away a lot of unqualified people if producers for example know who IS qualified and isn't. And for those with the aptitude, have what it takes, but are still learning have something to refer to, to know how to conduct themselves.

Looking forward to it Jay, if you are ever on the East Coast and need some help let me know.
 
Jay - Where do we pre-order? I'm in. I'm a bit outside of the main markets for DIT services and the like, but have been doing a bit of it on freebie short films and really enjoy the work, but have been pretty without resources for learning more or what the "professionals" have on their carts, or resources to see how things are supposed to be done. Reading on forums is very helpful, but only gets you so far. Thanks for the thread, and thanks in advance for the DVD, if it happens - I'll be waiting for it.
 
I've been writing a reply to the question that is now sitting about 30 informative posts back. I'm not sure how much you'd be interested in my answers anyway given that I'm only working at a basic level as a DIT in the UK and mostly in a limited capacity on low budget shoots which often don't require any extras like transcodes, first lights etc.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here as to what the role of DIT is and often it runs the gamut from Digital loader combined with 2nd AC to Data Wrangling to full on DIT services with end to end image pipeline planning, testing, setup & management, transcodes, dailies, on set look management/first lights. People who can just do the data wrangling and may not even have the proper equipment for that are still hired as DIT's and a lot of the young inexperienced production people and those who have not shot digital before don't seem to know any better ( and are often very surprised and impressed when I turn up and offer so much more). But this is my experience from working on the very edge of the professional market on low budget indie stuff. Perhaps there is a general understanding of what a DIT does, and proper well recognised labels for the other more limited functions of Digital loading and Data wrangling but I have not encountered that yet.
 
In fact I have been quite cautious about labelling myself as a DIT. Especially on these forums. It took me a long while before I did it here, I simply felt I didn't have the full spectrum of experience and knowledge to call myself a DIT, hence in older posts I described myself as a DIT in training (lacking any better way of describing what I usually did on set). Reading some of the above I would say I'm not quite there yet when put alongside the people who have shared above. I have yet to have the experience of shooting multicamera, have never been asked to set up looks or transcode on set (but have done it all in post so know how to to an extent) but I do have in depth knowledge of the camera, exposure, codecs, video signals, post workflows, grading systems, color theory, and data management. I have much of the software mentioned in other peoples posts, run a triple backup raid eSATA system, always use a UPS, always do checksums, visually verify footage, communicate problems and find solutions and write reports. Because of the nature of the low budget projects I have worked on I also have had to be video village, 2nd and even 1st AC, sometimes even a spark/electrician as well as fulfilling my duties as data manager/DIT.
I also went to college to study broadcasting back in the late 90's so I ended up learning in depth about analogue and digital video technology at a time when things were still transitioning over - all of which helps.
 
Great Thread Jay...my experience on "Louie" was an incredibly fun and rewarding position to have but only when your covering all bases 110%, there really is ZERO room for error and if you loose a single shot, game over. Simple is that.

For the young producers reading this thread...please dont assume your 2nd AC can media manage when he is not busy, this is one area in production you DONT want to cut corners and save money on. Hire a professional DIT and sleep well.
 
Randy Lee said:
Jay - Where do we pre-order? I'm in. I'm a bit outside of the main markets for DIT services and the like, but have been doing a bit of it on freebie short films and really enjoy the work, but have been pretty without resources for learning more or what the "professionals" have on their carts, or resources to see how things are supposed to be done. Reading on forums is very helpful, but only gets you so far. Thanks for the thread, and thanks in advance for the DVD, if it happens - I'll be waiting for it.
Click to expand...

Randy,

We're a long way from a finished product. When I get closer, I'll let everyone know!

Jay
 
Wow, great posts Gunliek, Noel, Kayak and others ( specifically referring to some pages back now but they keep coming)

I'm not sure how interested you are in my 2 pennies worth Jay, since I have only been doing this for around 8-9months now and still only tend to work mostly on low budget shorts which tend to have their own set of unique problems and workflows.

Working on these low budget productions I tend to find that on music videos & documentaries plus the fashion pieces I've been working on they don't want you just as a dedicated DIT but will often want you to be a Clapper Loader/2nd AC and Data wrangler (here one has to put all one's trust in R3D data managers checksum verifications and hold fingers crossed that there were no dropped frames or other problems that went unnoticed during shooting). Sometimes they take it even further and expect you to be Focus Puller/2nd AC too, like on a recent green screen interview shoot that I worked on for a documentary. The low budget short film dramas seem to tend to just be looking for a full time DIT, usually just in a data management and technical camera support role - on set first light and transcoding is rarely asked for at this level partly because of budgets being overstretched, and partly, I suspect, because production people are overstretched and can't face the extra planning and integration of these things into the larger production plan. In other cases they just simply don't have the post people for the project lined up yet so we don't know what format to transcode offline files into.

Each of these situations dictates a different set of working habits, backup procedures etc. There are a few general rules that apply to them all though:
A system for labelling mags, identifying them as exposed and demarcating what stage they are at in the backup/verification process is vital. During a busy shoot it is very common to get called away from what you are doing to trouble shoot a problem or answer some questions or whatever, you then need to be able to come back to what you were doing without losing track of where you had got to. This is where it kind of crosses over with the 2nd AC/ Clapper Loader. I generally like to work a system where mags are labelled at the time of formatting (whether on camera or at the DIT station) using a strip of camera tape with the roll/mag no. written on. This can then be wrapped across the connection points on the media to denote it is exposed immediately after taking it off camera and then stuck on the card reader whilst backing up, then on the computer when needing checking through/visual verification and processing and finally onto the production handover drive or my raid drive to denote that all processes are complete and the media is on there and passed QC. (I know this is very basic stuff and doubtless taken for granted among all you high calibre professionals on these boards but since it is such an important fundamental that hasn't been described in depth I thought I'd throw it in).
I never backup without checksum verification, footage is too valuable and I have encountered copy problems enough times to make me glad I had them flagged to me by the checksum verification process. Like most people I am using R3D Data Manager for RED footage and am looking at Shotput Pro and other options for when I get called out on a job with other cameras. For the moment I am just focussed on RED so I can really get to know every aspect of it inside out. Even with checksums verified some copy errors can slip through the net, usually because a card reader error is repeated on first read and checksum creation then through copying and verification. Hence the need to use the eagle eye on it all after copy looking for dropped frames as well as all the exposure, focus and other checks.

I work with three complete backups for redundancy - pretty industry standard (I learnt a lot from these forums - thanks guys). One is usually my own eSATA RAID, I often find that the production want two copies themselves and they supply the two extra drives, though I have extra on standby in case. I always specify a drive with eSATA and FireWire & USB2 if possible - this provides redundant connections should a port go down. Like others when stuck working on a laptop working backups are from FW800 card reader or FW800 off the REDdrive/RAM and eSATA onto the production drives & my RAID. Owing to the 2 port max on eSATA expresscards for the MBP this is a two step process though on occasion I have networked two laptops together and made one drive a share to copy onto all three simultaneously. This is why I like the look of the Sonnet QIO but given the price, compatibility issues flagged so far and imminence of LightPeak I'm holding off until I get a big payed job to make getting one worthwhile.

I have a UPS ( APC Back-UPS ES 700) which I carry with my portable MBP setup. This provides about 20mins of backup power and cleans the power supply. It has helped out in numerous remote shooting locations, once where I was based on the catering bus running off it's generator they decided it was too noisy so had them switch it off during takes. I was able to leave my station offloading without interruption. To extend battery backup life I only plug all the hard drives into the sockets which have battery backup (including RED drive for which I use the power supply and a non powered FireWire cable to avoid any chance of blowing the port) the battery on the MBP will outlast the UPS so I leave that plugged in to a non battery backup socket on it.

I carry a minimum of two of everything, especially cables and card readers as they are the most common points of failure. As backup for my UPS (carrying two around would be too heavy to be portable) I carry a surge protected powercleaning multiplug.

As I'm stationed by a powersupply I usually help out the 2nd AC by managing battery charging by my station too.
 
drives are labeled,
different colors if its a multicam shoot,
say, blue tape for cam A, red tape for cam B,
so i can detect easier when something goes wrong which drive it was.
when changing mags, i put a small piece of gaffer to the drive connector, so the mag really cant be used again (in the heat of shooting it can happen that you switch drives by accident)
and the mag comin from the cam is hotter.
i also make special folders for the steadycam shots.
sometimes when working with multiple cams, the sensors have littpe differences (really little though, but they are there), i'll take that into account.
 
Jay, you are correct, DIT has been around since before file based cameras and the union hasn't really caught up with its contracts.

The more shows I DIT, the more I really advocate for a DIT and Digital Loader/Digital Utility team should be on every file based show. There are many reasons for this, first being it gives the production two sets of eyes on all the footage. It gives a training path for becoming a DIT, which is really needed, because there are so many different things a DIT might need to be knowledgeable about that don't just happen from being on a couple show. Plus it allows the digital loader to really focus on downloading footage without worrying about hurrying to get to the next step or running to camera to solve a problem, and it frees up the DIT to focus more on color on set and workflow and transcoding and hopefully playing through footage to find problem that can be missed in transferring (out of focus, wrong settings on camera, dropped frames, etc). Two people working together like a 1AC and 2AC will provide so much more protection for productions. Reality is that most digital shows are lower budget, majority of big shows still shoot film, and so having two people is not normally an option.

The really low budget productions that want an AC/DIT, I avoid them. That is okay if it is your friends, but if it is a serious project and you are not being allowed to focus on the footage, but you will be blamed if something happens. Say NO! When I am on a smaller commercial or something and camera is short staffed, I will help out as much as I can, but taking care of the footage is my job and I am not going risk the footage because they need someone to slate or move the camera or anything. The few hundred dollars they are saving not hiring some for that job can get real expensive if footage gets lost. And it is your career. DITs need to let producers know they are professionals, not a camera interns who do whatever is needed. I am not going to risk my reputation because they are too cheap. If something happens they are going to blame me and it doesn't matter that they had me pulling focus,I accepted the responsibility.

And I am not knocking anyone who does those low budget jobs, we all have to start somewhere. I have done those kinds of jobs, but looking back, it was very risky of me. Working as a Digital Loader for an experienced DIT is a much better way to get experience.


Dusty
 
There has been a lot of good info for your initial question, but here is my response for you.

For preproduction I typically talk to the Producer first because they are hiring me or in some cases the DP first because they are the one wanting a DIT or I have worked with them in the past.

First question for me is what camera are we shooting? Sometimes I get input in that, but most of the time they already know what camera before they call me and I have to work with that. No problem.

Next question is what are they looking for and what is the budget. Some shows only want someone to download footage. Some shows are shooting a camera that doesn't need downloading and only want someone to create LUTs and be tech support for camera. Other shows want someone to download, sync sound, transcode to three different formats, make iPad dailies, SD DVD dailies, online dailies, provide a project file to the editor so they are ready to start editing right away, and several other things. In my experience almost every show is different, even working with the same producers. Some shows want everything, but only budgeted for a PA to do the work.

Once I know what the show wants then I want to talk to the post guys to find out what they need. Sometimes the post guys aren't on the project yet, so I can't talk to them and have to guess based on what the producers say. In that case, the post guys are almost always not happy, because they wanted Prores when the Producer said DNxHD or the offline is in 1920x1080 and the prefer to do the offline in SD. The sooner I can talk to the post guys, the easier it is to make sure the workflow I come up with fits their needs.

Next I like to talk to the ACs. Work out all the details on handling media on set and labeling. This is HUGE! If we don't have a proper workflow for this, it is easy to shoot over footage that hasn't been downloaded. You really need a good working relation ship with the ACs. Plus I need to know the 1ACs knowledge of the camera. If they have shot with that camera several times and is comfortable with the menus, that makes my job a ton easier. If they have 20 years experience with film and have never shot on Red, I am going to spend a lot of time at camera on little things, because it doesn't work how they want it to.

With the ACs I like to number ALL the media so if there is a problem with a card I can log that the problem was with card #5. If that problem happens again and it is card #5, I know to remove that card fro rotation. We also work out how we want to tape the media to show that it is exposed and what I am going to do so they know it has been downloaded. There is no real standard for this because every media is different (CF card, Red Drive, SxS card, SD card, etc), you you need to talk about it. I also like to set up a hand off procedure. The 1AC takes the card out of the camera, puts tape on it and hands it to the 2AC who makes sure it is logged and ready, they then bring it to me to be downloaded. I like it when this is done to the point that if I am at the camera with the 1AC when the cards comes out, they walk it over to the 2AC instead of just handing it to me and telling the 2AC I have it. That might be a little obsessive, but it stops mistakes.

Somewhere in there I need to talk to the sound people and find out how they plan to do sound and make sure I get my input on that. Framerate, lock-it boxes, timecode slate, syncing sound, scratch track on camera or final sound recorded on camera. Lots of things to talk about with sound.

It is also good to talk to the Video Assist person. Make sure they have the correct kit to talk to this camera and if needed your kit. It is also good to make sure everything is compatible. I know a few video assist guys who have had bad experiences with DITs because a down converter or something wasn't compatible and the video guy kept loosing signal. DIT said he didn't care because his stuff worked. That is not the attitude to have. It is much better to work out that everything needs to be PsF and not progressive and make sure everything has the correct settings that to just send progressive and say my kit works fine, deal with it.

Once I have all that info I start figuring out the proper workflow for that production. Once I think I have the process down I test it with real footage and real sound to make sure. A good example of why is the Alexa show I am on now. I tested my initial workflow with Prores 444 footage I created out of FCP and some old BWF files I had from a Sound Devices 744t. When I got into preproduction and got actual footage from the camera and from the sound guys Deva, my initial workflow did not work. So everything changed just days before production started. No big deal, but that is why you need to test.

Make sure you have a back-up plan for everything. Actually think about all the steps in your workflow and figure out what you will do if something stops working. What do you do if you boot drive fails, if a cable fails, if you loose power, if a drive in your raid fails, your dongle dies, etc,etc,etc. Sometimes the answer is grab my replacement, other times the answer is get if fixed tonight and do extra work tomorrow to get caught up. It depends on how critical that step is. Also think about a drive dying in your raid really hard. If you are using raid 5, how long does it take to rebuild? What if you have to shutdown and move location three times. Don't forget you still need to download footage to your raid. How does that effect your rebuild. I have had a drive die in a raid 5 and it took two full days to finish the rebuild because of all those things. That was two days of me stressed because it was 90+ degrees and if a second drive died before the rebuild I would be in a lot of trouble. There were still multiple copies of the footage everywhere, but getting three plus weeks of footage on a new raid while trying to keep up with my job would not have happened.

Once I have my workflow, then I can figure out what kit I need. I really like my big cart, but not every show needs that or has a place for it. I'll write something about kit later.

Okay, that is enough rambling. Hope there is something useful in there for you.


Dusty
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Tell you what... Screw it.. Let's just stay on Data Management, talk about equipment only in how it supports that goal. What I'd like to know is this:

You are aware that a drive on a RED/HPX200/ALIEXA/5D is full.. List every step you take from the time the drive gets into your hand (I'd also like to know HOW it got into your hand) up until the time you ERASE the drive, and send it back into rotation for camera.

This is a BIG ONE.. So take your time..

Jay
Click to expand...

A recent workflow of mine:

Red Drive/Card on my cart.
- Ingest via R3D Data Manager from Red Media to my RAID and Primary show copy (via eSATA) simultaneously.
- Upon successful completion I start a finder copy from the Red media to secondary backup destination, and while copying, I watch the completed RAID copy in Redcine X.
- Restart machine after kernel panic crash caused presumably by Rocket card acting up during playback or any random action in RCX.
- complete finder copy after reboot, and before launching RCX, saving log file and sending to RED. Disable rocket card and complete footage review.
- While reviewing apply look/crop settings and take several snapshots for review of options for DP.
- Reformat Red Media and label accordingly with tape for A/B camera.
- Re-enable rocket and transcode batch of clips when caught up on downloading.
- AA Sync copy made of primary drive after wrap for third backup copy.
- select snapshots converted to jpg and uploaded to password-login website gallery.

This wasn't ideal. Unfortunately there wasn't enough media to transcode before the media was needed again on set. This was a risk the production took running two cameras with not enough spare media.

Sometimes you have to roll with the punches and deal best you can. I believe you have to be principled with certain things, but ultimately the ability to adapt to the situation is vital.
 
Here's a question

Here's a question

Why MAC?

It would seem almost every DIT station I am hearing about is MAC based. Yet so far I have not heard of a MAC specific task.

As I understand it, a lot of you suffer wth a lack of card slots, limitations on graphics cards, etc..

So explain to me (And others) why MAC?

J
 
r3d manager for example.
and a lot of guys bought their macs 2008 or 2009, when red software was released first for mac.
and a lot of editing bays are mac based in posthouses, so your drives are formatted for mac.
and the only way to transcode to prores is on mac.
alexa is shooting in prores too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top