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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Display Options For 4k Red-ray

Blair S. Paulsen said:
Here we are in September of 2010 and, AFAIK, the options for 4K display are still extremely limited unless you have $$$,$$$.

If anyone knows of shipping 4K monitors/projectors that are even remotely "affordable" please share. Thanks.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

A friend of mine recently began working in the marketing dept for Epson projectors. I asked her to chat to folks to see how that 4K projector was coming along...

Lemme see if I can get them connected with us REDusers.

No promises, but any messages from the community I should pass on? How low a price do they need to hit? $20,000? $10,000? How many sales do you think I could honestly say they'd be likely to get from you guys?

I can dream of a 4K projector group buy though, can't I :)

Actually, did Epson ever properly respond to Jim when he had that "calling Epson" thread?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Potential customer feedback for Epson dev team

Potential customer feedback for Epson dev team

Minimum specs: QuadHD (3,840 x 2,160), LCoS or DLP based, 1,200 lumens, 2,000:1 contrast ratio, 99% of rec 709 color gamut, 96% of P3 gamut, decent stock lens and access to calibration controls.

Street price of $10,000 and I'll buy one today. Street price of $20,000 and I will expect more than the minimum specs described above but if the picture is good I'd pay it. More than that and the ROI gets tough quickly, at least for my business model.

Anyone know the street price for a Projection Design F35 projector?
(single chip DLP, 2560 x 1600, 6500 ansi lumens, 36-bit RGB)

Cheers - #19
 
Uh... What Blair said. Epson needs to hit the QuadHD mark or better yet, full 4K. They also can't shaft their customers with a $10K projector and a $3500 bulb to replace every 2500 hours as some projector makers do.

Oh and if they really want to make a splash, they should make a 3D projector that incorporates a polarizing wheel along with the DLP color wheel in the projector so we can set up passive 3D systems without the need for two separate projectors and concerns over convergence etc..
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Minimum specs: QuadHD (3,840 x 2,160), LCoS or DLP based, 1,200 lumens, 2,000:1 contrast ratio, 99% of rec 709 color gamut, 96% of P3 gamut, decent stock lens and access to calibration controls.

Street price of $10,000 and I'll buy one today. Street price of $20,000 and I will expect more than the minimum specs described above but if the picture is good I'd pay it. More than that and the ROI gets tough quickly, at least for my business model.

Anyone know the street price for a Projection Design F35 projector?
(single chip DLP, 2560 x 1600, 6500 ansi lumens, 36-bit RGB)

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Hi Blair. I posted a GROUP BUY for this a few months back... its still not shipping until Nov and possibly until January now .I LOVE Their 1080 F32 projectors... swear by them for the $... but these will ONLY be sub $30K on a group buy... MAYBE sub $25K if we could get 100 of them.

Still a screaming deal for a BEYOND 2K projector... and the TI Dark chip and VIZ SIM color wheel is the same as used in the Christie... not to mention a much SMALLER form factor than a SONY or Christie, Barco, etc.
 
So Guys, is there anything cheap for 4K, apart from those old poor secondhand 21inch monitors for 4-5 years ago?

I had planned on doing a design with a optical device to stich together 4 or more pictures to make SHD, but my bad health has prevented me. However, a simpler thign somebody might attempt, is a bracket for 4 or more projectors, to line up and focus on screen. If Red wanted to I could show them possibly how to make a SHD desktop display for sale beneath $5K (reality is under $2K as a mass produced product without antitrust based restrictions). I actually was planning on doing such a device, but hit a snag handling the data bandwidth on the components at that time (which also culled of the idea of camera recorder, or compressed in socket sized SD card recorder). When you get to that stage, it is like the old song, 'blue skies, looking at me, nothing but blue skies do I see', then you give up the idea until you can afford otherwise. Anyway, the projector bracket thing is doable if anybody is interested, the trick is getting a hi-fidelity projector cheap enough (I had a few possible sources in mind).

On the humorous side: Ever get sick of still getting weird looks you even dare mention something in the SHD-4K range in a 'computer' shop, where they usually have no idea (even though Nvidia was pushing it over 4 or more years ago) not to mention that you can buy SHD TV's now. I had one guy saying that no screen was available with even 4 million pixels when I asked if Apple was upgrading the display he had across from the counter (I think he actually resorted to using his on screen calculator, I think he was one of the better ones, some guys are just like watching fish in a bowl, as with many, so frustratingly fascinating).
 
.....say a consumer grade 56"x 4K television (somewhere) costs ~$20,000. ​
television prices drop about 30% per year, so we can expect the following....looking at the list it'll feels a little optimistic....
(take this with a grain of salt!)

2010 - $20,000
2011 - $13,000
2012 - $8,500
2013 - $5,700
2014 - $4,000
2015 - $2,500
2016 - $1,800​

D,​
 
david farland said:
.....say a consumer grade 56"x 4K television (somewhere) costs ~$20,000. ​
television prices drop about 30% per year, so we can expect the following....looking at the list it'll feels a little optimistic....
(take this with a grain of salt!)

2010 - $20,000
2011 - $13,000
2012 - $8,500
2013 - $5,700
2014 - $4,000
2015 - $2,500
2016 - $1,800​

D,​
Click to expand...

Actually the only one out now is the ASTRO and costs $69,995 USD at BH-Photo http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/676516-REG/Astro_Design_Inc_DM_3410_4K_x_2K_10.html

So triple all these numbers and in 2016 - a 4K monitor will be $5400, right?
 
Tom Lowe said:
I would love to have a 40" 4K for editing.

Some people might think there is not enough of a market to justify a manufacturer making a 4K 40" LCD. But imagine how many still photographers, for example, would flock to such a device, allowing them to color correct, photoshop, etc, at 4K. That thing would be THE hot ticket for tens of thousands of photographers, not to mention thousands of Red owners, and soon tens of thousands of Red owners. Oh, and what about interest from the PC gaming community?

The first bigtime 4K LCD at a somewhat reasonable price is gonna sell like hotcakes.
Click to expand...

I think you are right on here, the computer community will drive it initially. Beside photo/video/cad/gaming there are a lot scientific/industrial uses - the process control people love those high res displays. In our area the museum, trade show and signage people latched onto hidef much quicker than the regular tv/motion pic industry and I think they will do the same with high res displays. You don't even need a 4k movie cam to do 4k photos and PowerPoint style presentations (with maybe 1080 video in a window) so I think it will happen fairly quickly once it starts.


david farland said:
.....say a consumer grade 56"x 4K television (somewhere) costs ~$20,000. ​
television prices drop about 30% per year, so we can expect the following....looking at the list it'll feels a little optimistic....
(take this with a grain of salt!)
Click to expand...

I've always heard that as they double the quantity sold, the cost is halved, so the curve is much steeper atbthe beginning.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Anyone TEST this $15K 4K projector yet? Holy Shit! its only $15,000 USD? is that a typo? JVC DLA-SH7NL
Click to expand...

Announcing this model was indeed good news in that somebody sees the potential market. Of course, since that Feb. 2010 press release there appears to be nothing going on. If anyone has any recent info on this unit I would love to know.

As others have noted the 3-D craze seems to have put the "beyond HD" segment into suspended animation. Moreover, if 3-D lays a financial egg for the display manufacturers, which seems highly likely unless the Christmas season moves a ton of units, they may be even more timid on investing in 4K display tech that has no verifiable market metrics.

Like many high tech product offerings the value proposition is difficult to attain without shipment volumes that yield rational unit costs, both for wholesale and retail pricing models. I would posit that our very own Red Leader leveraged an opening in the marketplace by gambling that if the retail price of a professional camera was low enough that it could be sold in quantities that would drive down unit cost and create a viable business model.

Quite frankly, AFAIK, the only company with enough skin in the game, war chest, top down decision making and synergistic product offerings to take this particular leap of faith in the short term is RED. Lately their focus appears to be rolling out new cameras, better color science, etc which is hard to fault.

IMHO our best near term hope is that Apple will roll out a 32" - 60" QHD (3,840 x 2,160) monitor for their next generation product line. Why? Apple wants to take over your living room. Plus, they are still a player in the creative field (though fading) where high megapixel digital stills and numerous other applications would make the monitor a justifiable investment.

If Epson, JVC or anyone else cares to prove me wrong I have my credit card in hand...

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Announcing this model was indeed good news in that somebody sees the potential market. Of course, since that Feb. 2010 press release there appears to be nothing going on. If anyone has any recent info on this unit I would love to know.

As others have noted the 3-D craze seems to have put the "beyond HD" segment into suspended animation. Moreover, if 3-D lays a financial egg for the display manufacturers, which seems highly likely unless the Christmas season moves a ton of units, they may be even more timid on investing in 4K display tech that has no verifiable market metrics.

Like many high tech product offerings the value proposition is difficult to attain without shipment volumes that yield rational unit costs, both for wholesale and retail pricing models. I would posit that our very own Red Leader leveraged an opening in the marketplace by gambling that if the retail price of a professional camera was low enough that it could be sold in quantities that would drive down unit cost and create a viable business model.

Quite frankly, AFAIK, the only company with enough skin in the game, war chest, top down decision making and synergistic product offerings to take this particular leap of faith in the short term is RED. Lately their focus appears to be rolling out new cameras, better color science, etc which is hard to fault.

IMHO our best near term hope is that Apple will roll out a 32" - 60" QHD (3,840 x 2,160) monitor for their next generation product line. Why? Apple wants to take over your living room. Plus, they are still a player in the creative field (though fading) where high megapixel digital stills and numerous other applications would make the monitor a justifiable investment.

If Epson, JVC or anyone else cares to prove me wrong I have my credit card in hand...

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

excellent observations Blair... still think we all would plunk down $15K WITH LENS on a group buy on this thing if it indeed was 10-bit 4K.

I have got Torrey (Silverado Systems) looking into it. Because who doesn't want to project their delicious 4K Debayered (from 5K EPIC) footy to a 40 Foot screen? :) I know my clients would LOVE it.

Hell, we can all start our own 4K city to city - international projection venue/lounges. :)
 
Curious why there is so much interest in projection? I have been heavily involved in same for many years and as good as they look they are not what I would call reference standard. Besides, the blacks are, well, not that black and lamps can be costly!
 
The stuff in this thread is getting a bit naive.

A few years back a manufacturer revealed that there was very little difference in cost of 720p and 1080i sets. I remember in the 80's a manufacturer revealing how little their Vietnam produced TV's were. It is smoke and mirrors. The truth is in mass production the cost compared to FULLHD is likely to be small. There are variables of course, some tech wont scale/wont scale cheaply, and other tech that will scale can cost more, I'm not that far into the LCD/Plasma display design side of things to be able to tell.

SHD has been around for years. CMO, a cheap display provider that produces displays for a number of manufacturers announced a SHD 56 inch around 2006. Nvidia was pushing for SHD, but the industry let use down. There was a 21 inch (or 22) before this (scale that up to 42inch you get Ultra HD). Since then there has been many teaser SHD displays shown, apart for the $20K production plasma. So, the time scale of cost reductions should probably extend from at least this date.

But the truth is that you can do a SHD display for $1000 retail. As long as it is good and bright enough to edit videos at desktop size it's doesn't have to project up to a big screen.

Another, more expensive technology is the one used in the laser Vue, that should scale up to a 'relatively' cheap SHD display (providing you can pry a SHD chip from TI's hand cheap enough (or use 4 FULLHD chips and processing). Originally, sets were said to be something like $1700 but then they brought them out for around $7000 in time for the GFC. You might find it had to find another reference monitor that can handle nearly 200% color.

Led FULLHD projectors would be another thing, I think it was 130% or 160% color.

About the gray blacks and quality of projection screens. There are specialist newer screen technologies that should give you high quality, high contrast and blacker blacks. Being under patents it is probably being sold for a lot more than it could be for given a deal for 30-60 inch screens it should be cheaper.

My own designed was aimed at $80 production costs, retail $500.

Stills people more likely would prefer/need a 56inch+ ultraHD display to see the detail in professional DSLR cameras, as SHD is not enough for even cheap 14mp pocket cameras.

So, from a hardware design point of view, the actual picture is a bit different, and you can't just judge from how much the market wants you to pay

Anyway, Red has something planned, wherever it would be cheap enough for Scarlet fixed owners is another thing.
 
Did any one find out any more information about this? I have emailed JVC Pro in the UK for more details including price. Interesting that it does have the DVI-D connectors and the RED RAY has four of these so it could work for viewing footage.

I take on board what TIm says in that its only 8bit but it could be a more cost effective way for clients to view their 4k footage.

Steve
 
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