Digital Film recording expense

[David Mullen ASC]

The nice part about all this electronic imaging is that the price of film is saved and the cost of transfer to negative and printing is put off until after there is a distribution deal.

I have a friend who works for one of the big Prod/distro. companies as a rewrite guy. (mostly motw) When I talked to him about some indy projects we have been involved with he said: " This is all backwards, we don't greenlight a film until there is a distribution deal in place, why would anyone make a film when they don't have a market for it up front?"

You could just as well wonder why someone would give a distribution deal to a movie that hasn't been made yet, sight unseen, but that's a whole other issue... I know it happens. There are all sorts of ways movies get funded.

Just remember that a distributor doesn't really pay for the costs of finishing a digital movie out to 35mm - they take those costs out of what they were planning on paying you for the movie. So you're still the one actually paying for the film-out, but at least you've got the cash now to do it.

They are all types of markets, even for artsy stuff, but you just have to be realistic about those markets.

 

[Maheel R Perera]

I can't imagine someone wanting to make films now is going to sit on their hands and wait for theaters worldwide to switchover to digital projection...

David,

I was refering to a question asked by Manjeet from India. The situation is vastly different in many other countries than America re: worldwide distribution. So it is obvious you can not imagine that.

We have to look after the local distribution first.

 

[number6]

They are all types of markets, even for artsy stuff, but you just have to be realistic about those markets.

I may be the only one looking at filmmaking this way, but my target is not a large theatrical distribution. (If a deal were offered, then that would be o.k.) My intention is to put something digital on a harddrive, try to promote it at the existing digital projection theatres, and go straight to dvd. If I have something that clicks, word-of-mouth will spread and the dvd will sell. If not, I'll make another one.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

That's a fine plan and some people go that route and it works for them.

I'd say the downside is just that it tends to take-up a lot of your time, self-promotion and perhaps self-distribution, to the point where you take one year off to make and post a feature, and then two years more to promote and distribute it, perhaps a year alone simply taking it around to film festivals. So if your goal is to buy a camera so you can make movies more often, there is an incentive to unload the movie quickly after post so you can move on to the next movie.

 

[gsteiner]

Just a thought on 35mm Film outs...

Just a thought on 35mm Film outs...

Hey Guys,

This is a completely random thought, but seemed a bit relevant since someone was asking about finding an inexpensive way to do 35mm filmouts.

I've been playing with the idea myself for some time and have a theory as to a workable model that might be a short term solution until digital distribution is readily available for independent filmmakers.

I contacted a manufacturer of a high quality 35mm laser unit (lasergraphics) and after a number of hours with their execs, we came up with a potential business model that would allow us to put out 35mm prints just above cost. ($0.10 per frame, or about $13,000 for a 90 minute film)

The main reason I am looking into this is I want a cheap way to output my own projects, and I figure there must be others like myself that want to do the same.

At this point the concept is still in the "I'd like to do this" stage, but I would certainly like to get everyone's input on the model. Rather than wasting space here, this is a link to a page on my website that outlines the model we came up with (the verbiage is a bit "sales-y", but I'm sure you'll all see what I'd like to accomplish):

http://www.q-station.com/film_filmout.html

If anyone it's interested in the concept (thought not necessarily the way it's proposed on the web page) I'd love to hear comments and thoughts about the model itself.

Greg Steiner
Producer/Director
gsteiner@q-station.com

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Greg -

I contemplated a very simlar model until I did a whole lot of research. Now, I'm not saying you could not pull off a "package" of cheap film-outs working with a Lasergraphics P2 - the way you are talking about - but the devil is in the details.

You asked, so, I will list some very, very basic things for you think about -

#1) The technology. You are basing your model on the Lasergraphics P2. IMHO the P2 is NOT the best film recorder, not the WORST either - but have seen test records outs compared to other recorders?

Now if you are going for FAST, LOW cost, HIGH QUALITY 4K record outs - you should be looking very closely at this:

http://www.definity35mm.com/content/view/14/49/

4K same speed as 2K, full QT support. $180K USD - (that's some Offhollywood Consulting free of charge)

#2) Expertise. Who is doing the record outs - (running your recorder)? Do they have any lab/film background and experience? The folks that sell these recorders want you to think that you just load up a mag, click a mouse a few times and you are off to the races. This is simply not the case. At least not the case to get high qulity results.

Do you/they understand that when you deliver film elements to a distributor that there are specifications regarding the density of negative? - all adjustable on must recorders, but many published speed specs are NOT with proper, QC acceptable densities of the studios - does whoever is going to run your recorder understand and know how to set-up, test and deal with this?

Film stocks - LOTS of choices here - and they VERY MUCH impact price and look. Do you have a plan for managing LUTS for various stocks? Who is handling that?

#3) There is a company here in NYC, who shall remain nameless, that offers low cost film records outs on their "proprietary" equipment - which is a medical imaging LCD (3K resolution) attached to a Oxberry animation stand - and actually, escpecially on lower resolution digital material - the results are suprisingly good - good enough for a few theatrically released indies - they are LESS exciting when screened against the same material recorded out on another recorder - regardless, this company has proven that there is a demand for low cost film record outs -

#4) Competition. Think about this. There are lots of recorders out there, around the world. Many in places that like the American dollar. Many with LOTS of experience AND a wet lab and the expertise. Invest a bit in international phone calls ... you will be surpised how agressive some facilities around the world are - and you know - you just ship files on drives - my last record out was done in ROME this way.

#5) ROI - Service contracts on recorders are not cheap, make sure you read the fine print here - eFilm in LA has 14 Arrilasers cranking away and when I asked them if they got a good discount on the annual service agreements - the exec. I spoke to said "I WISH!"


The future is 4K digital projection. Period. However, until RED or someone makes a very LOW COST, EASY TO MAINTAIN projector - 35mm will be the standard.

Here in the US, we tend to think alot about the US market - but as far as the WORLD going to 4K digital - you need to remember that in many, many countries the movie theatres have old 35mm projectors that have been there for decades and are easy to maintain and operate by low cost, low tech personnal. So IMHO, to really get the WORLD to 4K digital projection quickly, you need to be talking say ... under $30K and easy to maintain. I suspect that RED will drop a bomb soon, once they start shipping cameras - but yeah, we still have some time recording out to 35mm.

I DO AGREE that there is a SHORT TERM opportunity in low-cost 4K film record outs - but to do it right, there is some real time and energy, FAR beyond "just load the mag and click a few settings on our cool GUI" - so, tread VERY carefully.

Hope this was ... helpful.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have a friend who works for one of the big Prod/distro. companies as a rewrite guy. (mostly motw) When I talked to him about some indy projects we have been involved with he said: " This is all backwards, we don't greenlight a film until there is a distribution deal in place, why would anyone make a film when they don't have a market for it up front?"

Unless you have significant cast, or an fantastic track record as a producer, you will NOT get a distribution deal before you shoot your film.

TJ - to answer your friend who re-writes MOWs - "because you have to" in order to build a track record. In order to establish yourself.

Why would an aspiring cinemtographer ever shoot anything without getting paid?

Over the years I have been involved with many indpendent features in various capacities. Only ONE had a distribution deal before we shot. I have also been involved with the SELLING of many of these films, and it very time consuming, and it is a slippery slope outside of the dream BIDDING WAR AT SUNDANCE scenerio which happens once-in-a-lifetime at best (which happened to me once w/Super Troopers).

One of our primary goals/strategies at Offhollywood is to secure a FIRST LOOK distribution deal with the home entertainment division of major studio. The short term reality of that happening will largely depend on who buys (and for how much) our new feature film ROCKAWAY (a Latino action film shot on 2-perf 35mm techniscope).

But I can tell you, I am looking very forward to the day of making films WITH a distribution deal in place first - but until then - we roll the dice.

Because we have to.

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Interesting thread here folks...

From what I have learned, save the coin on the film-out and or put it back in your picture like many suggested and if your film is successful and gets picked up then let the big boys distribute it on film for you. No?

Best

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

If you don't have a distribution contract in hand that requires 35mm deliverables - then put the $$ on the screen .... and buy a set of RED PRIMES.

 

[gsteiner]

Thanks OffHollywood...

Thanks OffHollywood...

Hey Hollywood,

Thanks for the additional insight. Some of your points I've considered, while others I hadn't given much thought to.

Down here in South Florida, the only local lab is Continental Film Labs, and I have a few contacts that have handled a lot of work there, from developing to color timing of dailies, prints, etc. I've already spoken with a few of them who like our idea (in theory) and would be willing to work (for a reasonble fee of course, which I've built into the cost at $0.10 per frame) to output the films and oversee the development issues on the negative.

Beyond that, I'm really still collecting data. I selected the P2 for my planning model, mainly because they were a relatively inexpensive unit ($200,000) that has been used on a number of big budget films, including (according to the company) Chronicals of Narnia, The Pirates of the Caribbean, and Underworld, among others, and the fact that it is upgradeable to any higher model. That plus, the company has been very helpful trying to put a working model together (of course they also want to sell me one of their units and a maintenance contract).

I haven't considered going overseas for a filmout, but you made a very good point and I will certainly begin looking at some of the overseas alternatives as well. I also will look into the other unit you suggested.

Ultimately, I don't want to be in the film recording business myself, but I could envision a scenareo where there was a kind of co-op not for profit that served the independent filmmaker community. This way it could be partially grant funded (for maintenence and staff, etc.) which may allow the cost to be reduced even further.

Thanks for the insights. I'll reevaluate the model some more and see if there is any way to improve apon it, though I think your suggestions were an excellent starting point!

Greg Steiner

 

[M Most]

Hey Hollywood,
Down here in South Florida, the only local lab is Continental Film Labs

They are most definitely NOT the only lab. Cineworks Digital Studios (disclaimer #1: I am Chief Technologist there) is a full service lab, full HD post facility (including HDCam SR), and full DI facility (we do our DI work in a DCI compliant DI theater, using an NEC iS2K projector and Assimilate Scratch). Feel free to give me a call, we'll be happy to talk to you about any projects you might have.

Disclaimer #2: we are also Red reservation holders.

General comment: I really don't know why some people still think the lab you mentioned is the "only" lab in South Florida. We've been around for almost 6 years, and at the moment are the only facility doing HD transfers in the area. We are currently handling processing and transfer on a Fox series being shot here on S16mm for the next 3 months or so. Maybe it's that the names are a bit similar.....

Disclaimer #3: I don't mean for this to be an advertisement, I simply mean for it to be informative. I apologise in advance to anyone who might see it otherwise.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think it makes a pretty huge difference regardless of whether you eventually plan to print to film. If you're printing your movie to film, one would assume you have a buyer already of some sort, I mean why would you be printing anything to 35mm film if you weren't showing it at a theater intending to make money, or many theaters, etc? But at least you have the product to show to buyers for way cheaper than shooting on 35mm film from the start...

 

[laguun]

as sidenote - when we record 90min in 1080p/2k@10bit@log->35mm, we usually pay below 15.000 euro including zerocopy & lightsound.

speaking of resolutions - if you project mechanical 35mm, the main bottleneck will be most certainly not the 2k or 4k filmrecorder, but the 35mm projection in the cinema, which usually won´t resolve 2k anyway.

however, if you want to make many copies, you still might consider a 4k master to have more headroom for additional generations in the copy process.

there are many people who tend to underestimate how fast 35mm quality will decrease over several copy generations.

furthermore, for the "ultimate-no-budget-we-are-real-rockers" approach, there is still the hardcore indie style - shoot it by hand from a top-notch class 1 hd monitor with a 35mm camera, frame by frame.
Haven´t done that in this millenium so far, but when i was a younger twen, we did that here and there for shortforms. but be warned - this punkrock-low-budget method isn´t trivial and requires absolute precision, testruns and in the best case an aligned optical system to erradicate any spatial distortions in the optic path.

 

[martinnoweck]

furthermore, for the "ultimate-no-budget-we-are-real-rockers" approach, there is still the hardcore indie style - shoot it by hand from a top-notch class 1 hd monitor with a 35mm camera, frame by frame.
Haven´t done that in this millenium so far, but when i was a younger twen, we did that here and there for shortforms. but be warned - this punkrock-low-budget method isn´t trivial and requires absolute precision, testruns and in the best case an aligned optical system to erradicate any spatial distortions in the optic path.

hehe, i like your punkrock-low-budget method ;-)
martin

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

Hey Hollywood,

Thanks for the additional insight. Some of your points I've considered, while others I hadn't given much thought to.

Down here in South Florida, the only local lab is Continental Film Labs, and I have a few contacts that have handled a lot of work there, from developing to color timing of dailies, prints, etc. I've already spoken with a few of them who like our idea (in theory) and would be willing to work (for a reasonble fee of course, which I've built into the cost at $0.10 per frame) to output the films and oversee the development issues on the negative.

Beyond that, I'm really still collecting data. I selected the P2 for my planning model, mainly because they were a relatively inexpensive unit ($200,000) that has been used on a number of big budget films, including (according to the company) Chronicals of Narnia, The Pirates of the Caribbean, and Underworld, among others, and the fact that it is upgradeable to any higher model. That plus, the company has been very helpful trying to put a working model together (of course they also want to sell me one of their units and a maintenance contract).

I haven't considered going overseas for a filmout, but you made a very good point and I will certainly begin looking at some of the overseas alternatives as well. I also will look into the other unit you suggested.

Ultimately, I don't want to be in the film recording business myself, but I could envision a scenareo where there was a kind of co-op not for profit that served the independent filmmaker community. This way it could be partially grant funded (for maintenence and staff, etc.) which may allow the cost to be reduced even further.

Thanks for the insights. I'll reevaluate the model some more and see if there is any way to improve apon it, though I think your suggestions were an excellent starting point!

Greg Steiner

There are labs in SE Asia that will do filmout with prints at reasonable costs

 

[mvb]

I took a look around, and some sites quote $40,000+, but DVfilm will do it for $20,000 [link] (that's 2K though)

We are offering a service for Red users, here is how it would work: you give us the Redcode raw files and your edited, color corrected HD proxy. It would have to be done using a special version of the Raylight DVCPROHD codec which has links in each frame to the Raw frames.

We conform the raw files to your cut by using the links, handle the recording of the negative (at 4K), the optical soundtrack, and the print. The actual scanning would be done by Laser Pacific (Kodak). All of this would be done at a lower price than going directly to LP with your raw files since they would have to either conform by hand or record the HD proxy (at lower res of course).

If there's interest in doing this let us know, http://dvfilm.com

 

[Thomas Mathai]

We are offering a service for Red users, here is how it would work: you give us the Redcode raw files and your edited, color corrected HD proxy. It would have to be done using a special version of the Raylight DVCPROHD codec which has links in each frame to the Raw frames.

We conform the raw files to your cut by using the links, handle the recording of the negative (at 4K), the optical soundtrack, and the print. The actual scanning would be done by Laser Pacific (Kodak). All of this would be done at a lower price than going directly to LP with your raw files since they would have to either conform by hand or record the HD proxy (at lower res of course).

If there's interest in doing this let us know, http://dvfilm.com

How do you handle the color matching of the HD Proxy to the Raw? What if there is a lot of specialized secondary grading?

 

[mvb]

How do you handle the color matching of the HD Proxy to the Raw? What if there is a lot of specialized secondary grading?

Basically we would take your project in After Effects, or Final Cut Pro or whatever you used for the color correction, and run a render through it where the correction is being applied to the full res frames instead of the proxy. The same thing happens right now in Raylight for example when you color correct in a low-res mode and then switch to the high-res mode for final render (there is no substitution of files, or recutting involved, it is handled automatically by the codec using the data links that are hidden in the proxy). If both the Raw and the proxy use the same color scale then the results are the same. Of course we would check it shot by shot to make sure.

Two other possibilities: we provide the software and you do the rendering yourself, (which might take a long time) or, you bring the proxy and the Raw files here and we do a supervised correction from scratch with our Rembrandt color correction system.

 

[donatello b]

"we do a supervised correction from scratch with our Rembrandt color correction "

gotta watch the use of the word "scratch" .. isn't scratch a real time CC , editor that can handle RED 4k data ??
so is that you do a supervised CC from scratch and then use rembrandt for the film out ??

 

[Paris Remillard]

Going back to what people were saying before about just waiting for distribution or waiting for D-Cinema to be ubiquitous, if Red does with the price of 4k projectors anything like what they've done to the price of 4k cameras, theater owners will surely respond the same way that we all have to the camera. I'm only wildly speculating here, but if we take Red One as compared to other cameras as an example, we're looking at a differnce in price of somewhere around 10 to 1, or more. The Sony SXRD 4k projector is I think I read around $90,000-100,000. Again this is just speculation, but is it possible that Red might be able to make a 4k projector in the $9,000-10,000 range? Are the components that much more expensive or difficult to manufacture than the camera? I know that this doesn't solve the problem of distribution and deliverables right now. But depending on when they release their projectors, it could be a faster transition than expected. Just guessing...

Or if the price is that low, you could just buy a projector or two or five instead of doing a film-out, and drive around showing your movie out of the back of your truck. But that's a whole nuther distribution model entirely.