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Diffusion Filter Outdoor Use

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Jacob Callaghan

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Hello,

I have a shoot coming up in the next few weeks that could benefit from a diffused look. The shoot will be skiing all outdoors. I was thinking of going for black satin #1. I have never used filter diffusion and dont know if this would be way to strong for shooting outdoors in a bright snowy environment. Does any one have any experience shooting snow with diffusion filters?

Thanks,

Jacob Callaghan
 
Tiffen Black pro Mist 1/8 would be okay, or 1/4. You could even try a 1/8 Fog... maybe.
 
Jacob Callaghan said:
Hello,

I have a shoot coming up in the next few weeks that could benefit from a diffused look. The shoot will be skiing all outdoors. I was thinking of going for black satin #1. I have never used filter diffusion and dont know if this would be way to strong for shooting outdoors in a bright snowy environment. Does any one have any experience shooting snow with diffusion filters?

Thanks,

Jacob Callaghan
Click to expand...

I think you need to choose first btw a mist or softening filter - the two basic categories of Diffusion...although sometimes there's a combo.

Mists are literally particles trapped in glass that create a more visible "diffusion", especially when the particles react against light sources (like practicles, the sun, or glares reflected off snow).

The most popular mists are as follows:

WHITE MIST = aka "Promist" is VERY NOTICEABLE and basically looks like a mild fog. The effect is often to "date" your piece, like it was shot in the 80's, 70's or 60's. Schneider's variant is called "Frost"

BLACK MIST = aka "Black Promist" is much less noticeable as a fog, because the particles are black, but they do halate against sources. These black parcticles are also in Hollywood Black Magic

SILVER MIST = aka "Glimmerglass" are pretty cool because of how they react to light. Used a lot in fashion.


Optical softening is done with little "shapes" imprinted into the glass...what that does is SOFTEN small details, but leave major details intact. So faces look the same, but skin details get softened. Very cool look. Depending on the shape of these "platelets", you'll have diffierent levels of "glow" or reaction to highlights.

CLASSIC SOFT - this is the timeless diffusion that almost everyone uses. Has a timeless glow that is really cool. But it can call a little attention to itself. It's the diffusion used in the other half of Hollywood Black Magic.

DIGITAL FX - this works like Classic Soft, but the design is much more subtle. You just don't "notice" the diffusion as much, as it barely reacts to practicals and light sources.


Personally, I'd recommend you start with one of the classics, so you know you're in good company. Those are:

BLACK PROMIST 1/8 - this is what folks generally slap on to make things look more filmic. Responds to highlights in a way that reminds folks of film, or perhaps better sais kills the digital edge enough to look analog. You could even creep up to 1/4. Peeky Blinders and Vikings are both shows show at 1/4.

CLASSIC SOFT - this is a classic diffusion, but my gut says you don't want this.

HOLLYWOOD BLACK MAGIC - this combo is a heavy hitter and tons of shows use it, from Game of Thrones on. I'd give it a long look.

GLIMMERGLASS - this is pretty cool too, so give that a shot. Works great outdoors. I'm not such a big fan of it indoors.
 
Jacob Callaghan said:
Thank you for the reply. I am going for a vintage 80s look. Would you go promist or black promist? Promist seems nice but maybe to strong for snow?
Click to expand...

If you're going for 80's, then def go for Promist. An 1/8 isn't too strong. I think Dom Hemingway used a 1/4:


About an old school gangaster who gets out of jail now, so they wanted it to feel retro, like from his POV.


Hitchcock I believe used White Frost 1/2, and is even more pronounced:

 
Jacob Callaghan said:
Thank you for the reply. For promist will i be able to shoot at f8 without particles showing up?
Click to expand...

The particles are always there, regardless of stop. You don't really notice them, except that there's a foggy look to the image, esp highlights.
 
If you stop down too much, the particles come into focus enough to look like dust over the image. Longer lenses might be fine, but I'd avoid stopping down too much on the wider-angle lenses, though f/8 might be OK except for extremely wide-angles. Shoot a test or just be prepared to use a strong enough ND filter.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I think you need to choose first btw a mist or softening filter - the two basic categories of Diffusion...although sometimes there's a combo.

Mists are literally particles trapped in glass that create a more visible "diffusion", especially when the particles react against light sources (like practicles, the sun, or glares reflected off snow).

The most popular mists are as follows:

WHITE MIST = aka "Promist" is VERY NOTICEABLE and basically looks like a mild fog. The effect is often to "date" your piece, like it was shot in the 80's, 70's or 60's. Schneider's variant is called "Frost"

BLACK MIST = aka "Black Promist" is much less noticeable as a fog, because the particles are black, but they do halate against sources. These black parcticles are also in Hollywood Black Magic

SILVER MIST = aka "Glimmerglass" are pretty cool because of how they react to light. Used a lot in fashion.


Optical softening is done with little "shapes" imprinted into the glass...what that does is SOFTEN small details, but leave major details intact. So faces look the same, but skin details get softened. Very cool look. Depending on the shape of these "platelets", you'll have diffierent levels of "glow" or reaction to highlights.

CLASSIC SOFT - this is the timeless diffusion that almost everyone uses. Has a timeless glow that is really cool. But it can call a little attention to itself. It's the diffusion used in the other half of Hollywood Black Magic.

DIGITAL FX - this works like Classic Soft, but the design is much more subtle. You just don't "notice" the diffusion as much, as it barely reacts to practicals and light sources.


Personally, I'd recommend you start with one of the classics, so you know you're in good company. Those are:

BLACK PROMIST 1/8 - this is what folks generally slap on to make things look more filmic. Responds to highlights in a way that reminds folks of film, or perhaps better sais kills the digital edge enough to look analog. You could even creep up to 1/4. Peeky Blinders and Vikings are both shows show at 1/4.

CLASSIC SOFT - this is a classic diffusion, but my gut says you don't want this.

HOLLYWOOD BLACK MAGIC - this combo is a heavy hitter and tons of shows use it, from Game of Thrones on. I'd give it a long look.

GLIMMERGLASS - this is pretty cool too, so give that a shot. Works great outdoors. I'm not such a big fan of it indoors.
Click to expand...

Nick, this is the kind of shit I come to REDUSER for...great post.
 
Try Schneider DIGICON 1/2 or 1/4, it can give you both:
- higher dynamic range (the filter rises up shadows and lowers, compresses the highlights);
- a glow/halation of snow and sun (its not flaring but more of a uniform spread of light, it transforms light into visible substance).

Though, it does not diffuse details or make image softer.

CML fast test:
http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/digicon-test.htm

Alfonso Parra's thorough test:
http://www.alfonsoparra.com/images/articulos/investigacion/digital_nohd/pdf/schneider_en.pdf

My experience with Digicon #1 on shitty Sony z5 (HDV) long ago:

Tzew6O

U0xTJV

d2Vpbb

D0EMi0

Yiyo98

cOiY3g

6GdSlI

xpJUuD
 
Last edited:
If you want a vintage & diffused look you can also try a very light FOG (1/8, 1/4, 1/2) or a LOW CONTRAST (1/2, 1). I particularly like the effect of the 1/2 Harrison & Harrison Low-Contrast Filter, but one of these can be very hard to find.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
If you stop down too much, the particles come into focus enough to look like dust over the image. Longer lenses might be fine, but I'd avoid stopping down too much on the wider-angle lenses, though f/8 might be OK except for extremely wide-angles. Shoot a test or just be prepared to use a strong enough ND filter.
Click to expand...
i was about to say the exact same thing. if you HAVE to be at an f/8 for a technical reason, do NOT use a filter that diffuses with imprints, use one that uses tiny lenslets, like the hollywood black magic or even and old school harrison. classic softs lenslets are even too big and ive been boned at the beginning of the digital age when i was only even at a f5.6.
 
Scot Yount said:
Nick, this is the kind of shit I come to REDUSER for...great post.
Click to expand...

Hey! I was going to say that! :-P

But yeah, you learn a lot here. In fact you have to try really hard to not learn something.

EDIT: For Picnic at Hanging Rock, Russell Boyd used fine mesh stocking over the lens, AFAIK. Is that viable, or redundant now that we have so many filters?
 
Ilya O. said:
Try Schneider DIGICON 1/2 or 1/4, it can give you both:
- higher dynamic range (the filter rises up shadows and lowers, compresses the highlights);
- a glow/halation of snow and sun (its not flaring but more of a uniform spread of light, it transforms light into visible substance).

Though, it does not diffuse details or make image softer.

CML fast test:
http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/digicon-test.htm

Alfonso Parra's thorough test:
http://www.alfonsoparra.com/images/articulos/investigacion/digital_nohd/pdf/schneider_en.pdf

My experience with Digicon #1 on shitty Sony z5 (HDV) long ago:

Tzew6O

U0xTJV

d2Vpbb

D0EMi0

Yiyo98

cOiY3g

6GdSlI

xpJUuD
Click to expand...

These look great. How does Digicon differ from Ultracon?
 
Nick Morrison said:
These look great. How does Digicon differ from Ultracon?
Click to expand...

Nick, Digicon has some particles (invisible when closed down) to rise shadows and lower highs.
While I never used Tiffen's UltraCon so I just quote David Mullen's post found on cinematography.com:

UltraCons are the closest thing to the flashed look; they produce a milkiness without softening detail or halating like LowCons. If you just want less contrast without a filtered look, they are the best bet. Just beware that they can flare out the image more, like when panning past a glare off of water or something.

An UltraCon 1 or 2 is usually best. The glass in an Arri VariCon is a light UltraCon, I believe.

Schneider now has something called a DigiCon, which is like an UltraCon with some black specs added to pull down bright details too. Designed for video cameras, but I don't see why they can't be used for film too.
 
jordan levy said:
i was about to say the exact same thing. if you HAVE to be at an f/8 for a technical reason, do NOT use a filter that diffuses with imprints, use one that uses tiny lenslets, like the hollywood black magic or even and old school harrison. classic softs lenslets are even too big and ive been boned at the beginning of the digital age when i was only even at a f5.6.
Click to expand...
What about HD Classic Softs, w/ smaller lenslettes? A fellow DP just turned me onto them as an alternative to the std classic softs. I used them today albeit under completely different circumstances (indoor intvw).
 
Bill Totolo said:
What about HD Classic Softs, w/ smaller lenslettes? A fellow DP just turned me onto them as an alternative to the std classic softs. I used them today albeit under completely different circumstances (indoor intvw).
Click to expand...

Little know fact: HBM uses HD Classic Soft too, FYI - not traditional (ie normal) Classic Soft.
 
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