Diffusion and warming filters on Scarlet/Epic

[Ben Scott]

Hi all,

A 2-part question here so as not to cause clutter.

I was wondering what if any diffusion filters you guys/girls use on Red shoots. Thus far I've only used IRNDs with the Scarlet but I have a couple of promos and a short coming up that will feature some leading ladies that I want to do justice to. Pro-Mist? Black Pro-mist? Soft FX? I see (Tiffen endorsee) Shane Hulburt is currently advocating their 'Digital Diffusion/FX' range. Any suggestions from DPs experienced in making women look gorgeous (on-camera) will be very much appreciated.

Additionally I'm hoping to shoot part of a romantic short in the next couple of weeks and while set in a front room in a house, the vibe for the aesthetic is very much reminiscent of 'Amelie'. In addition to good set design and a good grading session, would you recommend use of a warming filter? So far more than one DP has suggested a Tiffen 81 for it but I'm a little unsure of a) whether it's worth it when working in a RAW workflow and b) which strength of warming filter to go for. All the designations of 81 make the choice a touch harder.

Thanks in advance.

Ben

EDIT: One of these promos will be a high-contrast moody black and white shoot, if that informs the advice any

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I use Hollywood black magics and sometimes classic black softs

 

[Andy White]

What lenses are you planning to shoot on?

If you're using modern lenses, you can take out the sharpness in the grade later - but it's always nice to get in-camera diffusion if you're sure that's the look you want.

The other alternative is to use older/antique glass. The nature of the older glass often adds something missing in modern lenses (ie a bit of character and 'life') Maybe grab a Cooke zooms (amongst many other classic lenses that I'm sure other users will list , as these are often considered to give the classic 'beauty' look.

 

[Ben Scott]

Thanks Jake. Out of interest how strong would you usually go or is it wholly dependent on the subject's features?


Andy - I'm on a Canon mount so it will be Contax Zeiss stuff for the most part I should imagine.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Older lenses tend to be more prone to aberrations... chromatic, spherical, coma, and all the rest... just because you mentioned product shots, where purple fringes and distortion are generally a no-no.

Shane Hurl-burt is hired to push whatever Tiffen ain't selling enough of, and since 2007, I've been seeing their "digital diffusion" in the bargain bin at AbelCine...

Black diffusion is a filter that isn't too noticeable but awfully kind to skin.

Mist filters are designed to induce halation (a "glowing halo") in your highlights. The stronger the filter, the stronger the effect. Pro mists are not designed to reduce skin imperfections, not as far as I know anyway, you have to use a higher grade to get the skin-kindness effect you want, and by then it starts to become noticeable. Especially when a powdered forehead starts glowing.

I've recently experimented with warming/cooling using classic film filters, and I have to say there's something about doing it optically that's different from mucking with the white balance. One method changes the light striking the sensor, the other re-interprets it. Different. Test the range of 81 filters to see what you get...

For more on diffusion, google

site:reduser.net dave mullen diffusion

 

[Nick Morrison]

Older lenses tend to be more prone to aberrations... chromatic, spherical, coma, and all the rest... just because you mentioned product shots, where purple fringes and distortion are generally a no-no.

Shane Hurl-burt is hired to push whatever Tiffen ain't selling enough of, and since 2007, I've been seeing their "digital diffusion" in the bargain bin at AbelCine...

Black diffusion is a filter that isn't too noticeable but awfully kind to skin.

Mist filters are designed to induce halation (a "glowing halo") in your highlights. The stronger the filter, the stronger the effect. Pro mists are not designed to reduce skin imperfections, not as far as I know anyway, you have to use a higher grade to get the skin-kindness effect you want, and by then it starts to become noticeable. Especially when a powdered forehead starts glowing.

I've recently experimented with warming/cooling using classic film filters, and I have to say there's something about doing it optically that's different from mucking with the white balance. One method changes the light striking the sensor, the other re-interprets it. Different. Test the range of 81 filters to see what you get...

For more on diffusion, google

site:reduser.net dave mullen diffusion

Another classic Ryan De Franco post. LOVE IT.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Really though David Mullen has posted much more valuable information--and he's done it again and again in multiple posts. I'm not sure there's an equal resource for filtration anywhere else out there. Thanks David!

 

[Ben Scott]

Older lenses tend to be more prone to aberrations... chromatic, spherical, coma, and all the rest... just because you mentioned product shots, where purple fringes and distortion are generally a no-no.

Shane Hurl-burt is hired to push whatever Tiffen ain't selling enough of, and since 2007, I've been seeing their "digital diffusion" in the bargain bin at AbelCine...

Black diffusion is a filter that isn't too noticeable but awfully kind to skin.

Mist filters are designed to induce halation (a "glowing halo") in your highlights. The stronger the filter, the stronger the effect. Pro mists are not designed to reduce skin imperfections, not as far as I know anyway, you have to use a higher grade to get the skin-kindness effect you want, and by then it starts to become noticeable. Especially when a powdered forehead starts glowing.

I've recently experimented with warming/cooling using classic film filters, and I have to say there's something about doing it optically that's different from mucking with the white balance. One method changes the light striking the sensor, the other re-interprets it. Different. Test the range of 81 filters to see what you get...

For more on diffusion, google

site:reduser.net dave mullen diffusion

Great point on Hurlbut and I think his site has become increasingly more extended infomercials over the years. No product shots other than actresses/singers but a couple of the lenses display a touch more CA than the others unless stopped down past f5ish

Thanks for the input.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I would also add the need to shoot tests, and also consider the possibility that the look you're trying to go for may be obtainable in post. Adding a degree of warmth -- even selectively -- is not that difficult, and adding a kind of "pro mist look" is a couple of button pushes in terms of a highlight defocus.

Bear in mind that the danger of using filtration during photography is that you're stuck with it forever -- good or bad -- and you can't undo it later on. As long as you're absolutely sure of what you want and what you're going to get, it can work fine.

Note that Amelie was very heavily, heavily tweaked in post and VFX.

 

[Ben Scott]

True Marc.

I have the post side and set design side of it in hand in terms of the process but you raised the most important point I guess. Once you've shot it you're stuck with it. I guess with that in mind the most important question is 'can on-camera warming filters give you something that post-production can't?'

I think it's pretty much a given that diffusion can. I have absolutely no idea about warming filters. Thanks for you input

 

[Chris Adams]

I love using 1/8 - 1/4 Gold Diffusion. It warms up skin tones without making your scene look overall too warm like messing with white balance does.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Thanks Jake. Out of interest how strong would you usually go or is it wholly dependent on the subject's features?


Andy - I'm on a Canon mount so it will be Contax Zeiss stuff for the most part I should imagine.

Depends. I'd recommend testing. Different strengths look different at various focal lengths.

 

[Jon Carr]

I use a 1/2 classic soft and 1/2 BPM combo filter.

 

[Dave Blackham]

What lenses are you planning to shoot on?

If you're using modern lenses, you can take out the sharpness in the grade later - but it's always nice to get in-camera diffusion if you're sure that's the look you want.

The other alternative is to use older/antique glass. The nature of the older glass often adds something missing in modern lenses (ie a bit of character and 'life') Maybe grab a Cooke zooms (amongst many other classic lenses that I'm sure other users will list , as these are often considered to give the classic 'beauty' look.

Andy is quite right about this, a classic set of lenses can work really well to give the image some character. Im told that either a 1/4 soft or Digicon 1 may be worth considering too. our preference is to use Leica R lenses which are stellar on Epic.

 

[Ben Scott]

As mentioned the lenses are old Contax Zeiss.

It's a long shot I know but I don't supposed anyone has any before/after stills do they?