Detachable Zoom or Alternative?

[Jonesy Jones]

So, with all the wild speculations of the upcoming Scarlet release, personally, I just don't think we're going to see anything tremendously different from what we've already seen. Sure I'd love to see a bigger chip or more res, but for all the logical and obvious reasons that have already been posted, I don't think it's going to happen. The biggest change that I foresee is price.

The one speculation, however, that I'd love to see and some have already suggested is that the two known Scarlets have become one, making the fixed lens detachable. To me this would be an obvious "change" based on Red's philosophies.

1) A fixed lens seems like it could/would become obsolete. Not that I don't want one, that's actually the one that I'm eyeing, but wouldn't it have a much longer future if you could take that amazing zoom off and throw on a mini prime? 2) It seems more like Red to have one modular Scarlet than two distinctly separate Scarlets. Sure, I may have purchased the zoom package and you the mini prime package, but we swap lenses and accessories and configure our cameras a million trillion different ways like originally planned. 3) It makes more economic sense. If I buy a fixed lens Scarlet, aside from an accessory or two, I'm pretty much done. But if I can remove the lens, I'm also in the market for some mini primes. 4) A fixed lens doesn't seem as or very professional. Considering Red's quest to make only professional products, a fixed lens seems more akin to the soccer mom camera we heard about a couple years ago than the camera for the working professional. Again, not that I'm complaining, but here's to hoping for a detachable zoom.

Would some folks please advise as to why they think this could or could not happen?

Lastly, let's assume it doesn't happen and we still have two Scarlets, which is what I'm going to assume for now (or that they've postponed the fixed lens because of production issues). If one were to go with the interchangeable lens version, is there a zoom lens out there similar to the one on the fixed Scarlet?

Thanks.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

I think there will be one Scarlet with a removable lens as well. You will be able to by the brain alone or a kit with a zoom or a kit with mini primes or a kit with both zoom and primes.

 

[Solomon Nero]

I think there will be one Scarlet with a removable lens as well. You will be able to by the brain alone or a kit with a zoom or a kit with mini primes or a kit with both zoom and primes.

I would like that...with the controls of the fixed lens...but interchangeable...that would be awesome. We will see what comes out. Either way...I do not think they will disappoint...quite the opposite....this is gunna be awesome!

 

[Clint Lealos]

I'm thinking what your thinking Jonesy

 

[Leo Sardello]

While I share your sentiments and I think many people would prefer the most versatile of options possible, it's been my understanding that the lens of the Fixed Scarlet is deeply integrated into the camera itself. I also believe, if memory serves, that this integration will allow some features that may not be possible with removable lenses, though that might have all been speculative. The point is, if that's the case, while you might find a good zoom for the interchangeable model, it may not support all the features of the one on the Fixed. Attached is a great picture that shows what I mean by "deeply integrated".

Along with this, they have stated emphatically in the past that they were not working on a mini-zoom of any kind to accompany the mini-primes. Sorry I don't have links to that right now, but I remember it being said in several places. *EDIT* oops the latest I found wasn't quit as emphatic as I remember:

Joseph hit me with another 10 Scarlet questions this week.. Thought I would share.


(7) Are there plans for a RED Mini Zoom lens with full manual capabilities (iris ring, zoom ring, focus ring) to complement the RED Mini Primes? I realize the 8X Electronic Zoom on the F-Scarlet doesn't come off and a version of that cannot be offered for the C-Scarlet. This is not what I am asking for.

A full manual zoom lens will not be released at launch.

Now sure, all things subject to change and all but given that we've seen the Fixed floating about both at NAB and in Joseph's hands just a few months ago, all this leaves me inclined to believe that we are still looking at different Scarlet models, the Fixed lens being one of them and no RED mini-zoom for the Cinema Scarlet *EDIT* (At least at launch)*.. but I would love for that to have been one of the things subjected to change.

 

[Steve Wake]

Well stated, Jonesy. Out of all the more "wishful" possibilities for Scarlet this would rank high on my list too, definitely above a larger or higher resolution sensor.

As far as the integrated sensor/lens design, I could see it having minuses, too. Does the integrated design make repair/adjustment of the lens portion more costly, cost-prohibitive, or even impossible? I've argued elsewhere that the lens is an extremely complex optic to make perform at cinematic levels while still meeting the price point. For the price, it has an extremely high resolution spec (100 lp/mm in the center), and to be cinema-quality would need to stay near that spec in the corners and have minimal CA. Not easy. If adjustments during assembly and in the course of normal use are necessary the integrated design could be a problem. All speculation here.

Maybe the Fixed zoom would come complete with integrated mounting plate, rather than with a PL mount, saving on that expense and minimizing problems in redesigning the housing? And hopefully RED would figure out a way to keep the built-in ND's.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

While I share your sentiments and I think many people would prefer the most versatile of options possible, it's been my understanding that the lens of the Fixed Scarlet is deeply integrated into the camera itself. I also believe, if memory serves, that this integration will allow some features that may not be possible with removable lenses, though that might have all been speculative. The point is, if that's the case, while you might find a good zoom for the interchangeable model, it may not support all the features of the one on the Fixed. Attached is a great picture that shows what I mean by "deeply integrated".

Along with this, they have stated emphatically in the past that they were not working on a mini-zoom of any kind to accompany the mini-primes. Sorry I don't have links to that right now, but I remember it being said in several places. *EDIT* oops the latest I found wasn't quit as emphatic as I remember:





Now sure, all things subject to change and all but given that we've seen the Fixed floating about both at NAB and in Joseph's hands just a few months ago, all this leaves me inclined to believe that we are still looking at different Scarlet models, the Fixed lens being one of them and no RED mini-zoom for the Cinema Scarlet *EDIT* (At least at launch)*.. but I would love for that to have been one of the things subjected to change.

I tend to agree with you Leo, I'm expecting the Fixed to still be built in the camera. But on thing that is interesting, they had been working on electronic lenses, and maybe with what they learned from the Electronic lens control used in the Canon DSMC mount they were able to adapt to a mini-pl mount? Just a thought. Not trying to fuel speculation, just saying it could've been something that came about.

 

[Steven Hammer]

This is my number one wish for the "changes" that they said have occurred to Scarlet. Although, bumping up the resolution would be awesome, too, for stills purposes for me.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Problem is, the detachable zoom may double the price of the Scarlet. Jim Jannard has gone on record saying the lens was probably worth more than the camera. Unless Red has figured out a way to reduce costs with respect to the brain, I can easily see $10-12K for a Scarlet and detachable 8X zoom.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

I agree that we're probably still going to see the same two Scarlets that we thought we'd see. What's strange is that even though all logic tells us that, it seems like Jim went out of his way to suggest there have been some big "changes" to the "new" Scarlet. I have a bad feeling the only real change will be the price. But still looking forward to Nov 3rd and to Scarlet.

 

[Leo Sardello]

Problem is, the detachable zoom may double the price of the Scarlet. Jim Jannard has gone on record saying the lens was probably worth more than the camera. Unless Red has figured out a way to reduce costs with respect to the brain, I can easily see $10-12K for a Scarlet and detachable 8X zoom.

IF RED is developing a mini-zoom for the Scarlet, we can expect on their track record that it will represent a significant cost savings for quality of product, just as every other RED product does including the mini-primes.

Now is that going to mean they can offer it in a package with the Cinema Scarlet at a comparable price to the Fixed? Uh, ?? -to guess depends on a lot of very far reaching speculation to say either way. Though I would hope that the development of such a lens would be announced along with any info about the Fixed lens so that people who (regardless of the cost of this option) want it can plan accordingly. And I don't think RED would be actively developing such a lens and not announce it prior to taking orders on a fixed lens model. In other words IF they are currently developing a min-zoom I personally expect to hear about it on Nov. 3, though I don't necessarily expect prices and release dates then.

As a general statement here, I think it is very easy to see how some people would be willing to pay more than the price of the Fixed Scarlet for a Cinema model bundled with a matched RED zoom. Just as there would be people who would want the Fixed lens version over a Cinema model bundled with a matched RED zoom even IF they were the same cost. I know many people will be baffled by that, but to whoever they may be, believe it or not there are people who have their reasons for actually wanting a fixed lens outside of a cost savings.

 

[Andy White]

As a general statement here, I think it is very easy to see how some people would be willing to pay more than the price of the Fixed Scarlet for a Cinema model bundled with a matched RED zoom. Just as there would be people who would want the Fixed lens version over a Cinema model bundled with a matched RED zoom even IF they were the same cost. I know many people will be baffled by that, but to whoever they may be, believe it or not there are people who have their reasons for actually wanting a fixed lens outside of a cost savings.

As it's fun to keep guessing on this - here's another idea!

I think the answer will be a simple one - a single Scarlet model, but with a choice of lens mounts...

One basic body with a 'complex' mount that'll house the zoom that was part of the Scarlet fixed... the lens/zoom combo will make the body the 'Fixed' one... no other lenses will use the mount... but this way, all the R&D on lens/mount pays off.

Then, the same basic body becomes an 'interchangeable' via the use of PL or mini PL (or Canon etc) mounts.

It means people buy the basic Scarlet body - then add the 'complex' mount & zoom... or add other mounts/lenses.

This is the simplest solution - surprised nobody has speculated this one yet

 

[Steve Wake]

I think the answer will be a simple one - a single Scarlet model, but with a choice of lens mounts...

This is the simplest solution - surprised nobody has speculated this one yet

I agree, but I guess you didn't read my post above or a couple of other posts hinting at this solution in the Guessing Game thread.

As for cost - I don't know why people think this would add significantly to the cost, let alone double(!) the cost. Here are a couple of reasons one Scarlet could LOWER the cost:

• One body instead of two = economy of scale for Scarlet brain parts that were different for Fixed and Interchangeable.
• May actually lower the manufacturing cost since there would be just one assembly line for all the Scarlet brains, and the lens can be built and calibrated separately.

Making the Fixed electronic zoom lens with an integrated mount would get around the cost of building it with a PL mount and purchasing a PL mounting plate. One Scarlet would also be in line with the modular concept. Scarlet with Fixed zoom module for run and gun, doc, and (maybe) efp. Scarlet with lens plate (mini-PL, PL, Nikon or Canon) for narrative or subjects out of the range of the Fixed. I'd love to be able to put on a (less expensive dumb) Nikon mount and shoot ~2:1 macro with my ZF 100 or use my CV 180 APO as a ~650mm f/4 FF equivalent.

Anyway, just passing time. No harm.

 

[Andy White]

I agree, but I guess you didn't read my post above or a couple of other posts hinting at this solution in the Guessing Game thread.

As for cost - I don't know why people think this would add significantly to the cost, let alone double(!) the cost. Here are a couple of reasons one Scarlet could LOWER the cost:

• One body instead of two = economy of scale for Scarlet brain parts that were different for Fixed and Interchangeable.
• May actually lower the manufacturing cost since there would be just one assembly line for all the Scarlet brains, and the lens can be built and calibrated separately.

Making the Fixed electronic zoom lens with an integrated mount would get around the cost of building it with a PL mount and purchasing a PL mounting plate. One Scarlet would also be in line with the modular concept. Scarlet with Fixed zoom module for run and gun, doc, and (maybe) efp. Scarlet with lens plate (mini-PL, PL, Nikon or Canon) for narrative or subjects out of the range of the Fixed. I'd love to be able to put on a (less expensive dumb) Nikon mount and shoot ~2:1 macro with my ZF 100 or use my CV 180 APO as a ~650mm f/4 FF equivalent.

Anyway, just passing time. No harm.

Sorry Steve - must have missed your hint post... will have a look for it

Just was giving this some thought over a cuppa (Brit thing, you know - and had a Eureka moment... guess I was late to the party again...

The single Scarlet and complex zoom (the old fixed with a unique mount - or a 'Red' mount that 'might' fit more lenses down the line), makes so much sense on many levels. It'll probably come down to the electronics (how much is lens based vs body based).

Anyway... speculation is fun... but God, it's still not the end of September yet... and we've got ALL of October to go too... we'll all explode with anticipation!

Suppose there's nothing else to do but get back to work :laugh:

 

[Steve Wake]

Andy - no apologies necessary. The fact that 4 or more people came up with a similar idea only shows that great minds think alike:laugh:

But actually, after reading your post again (after morning coffee, rather than at the end of a long day) I see that your variation is a little different. The complex mount you're taking about already exists - it's the RED PL mount, which has all the electronics built in to enable control of the RED electronic lenses whenever they are released.

The problem is, that's a $2000 mount (a la carte pricing). Another problem could be that the Fixed zoom is designed with a lot of built-in electronics that were designed to mostly fit inside a roomy body. It may be too fat at the plane where it would insert into the PL mount. Solution to both problems: Make the Fixed with an integrated mounting plate. The whole assembly would be an 8x electronic zoom module. Change to Cinema configuration by removing four screws and attaching a plate with mini-PL, PL, Nikon or Canon mount. Epic brains are designed with the necessary electronic contacts to mate with the contacts on the RED mounting plates. Scarlet was designed with the same capabilities, so the Cinema body must have the same contacts as Epic. No new design, manufacturing, or firmware cost involved.

As for an 8x electronic zoom with mini-PL mount - extremely doubtful it could fit because of all the electronics attached to the outside. Also, mini-PL was designed specifically for the all-manual RED mini-primes - no electronics now or (AFAIK) planned in the future.

When thinking about universal plates, you also need to note the significant difference in back-focal depth between the Epic and Scarlet brains. The PL, Canon and Nikon mounting plates for Scarlet Cinema will need to make up this difference, so they would need to have extensions built in. Thus, Jarred's recent comment that Epic and Scarlet will use the same mounts could be very interesting if you read too much into it. (And no, Scarlet is not checked next to the mounts in the Red Store).

 

[Eric Rodemann]

I agree, but I guess you didn't read my post above or a couple of other posts hinting at this solution in the Guessing Game thread.

As for cost - I don't know why people think this would add significantly to the cost, let alone double(!) the cost. Here are a couple of reasons one Scarlet could LOWER the cost:

• One body instead of two = economy of scale for Scarlet brain parts that were different for Fixed and Interchangeable.
• May actually lower the manufacturing cost since there would be just one assembly line for all the Scarlet brains, and the lens can be built and calibrated separately.

Making the Fixed electronic zoom lens with an integrated mount would get around the cost of building it with a PL mount and purchasing a PL mounting plate. One Scarlet would also be in line with the modular concept. Scarlet with Fixed zoom module for run and gun, doc, and (maybe) efp. Scarlet with lens plate (mini-PL, PL, Nikon or Canon) for narrative or subjects out of the range of the Fixed. I'd love to be able to put on a (less expensive dumb) Nikon mount and shoot ~2:1 macro with my ZF 100 or use my CV 180 APO as a ~650mm f/4 FF equivalent.

Anyway, just passing time. No harm.

On a fixed camera there is no "mount". The lens is part of the camera. If you take off the fixed lens, no lens will work on the camera, not with any sort of mount.

You cannot put the fixed lens on any camera with a mount.

They are two different designs that do not work with one another.

You're basically talking about scrapping the fixed scarlet, and jumping ahead to the interchangeable, and making a new zoom lens for it.

 

[Steve Wake]

On a fixed camera there is no "mount". The lens is part of the camera. If you take off the fixed lens, no lens will work on the camera, not with any sort of mount.

You cannot put the fixed lens on any camera with a mount.

They are two different designs that do not work with one another.

Eric, I think you misunderstood my proposal. And I'm just passing time speculating, so not too invested in any ideas, and probably not explaining them sufficiently.

The assembly pictured shows that the Fixed zoom and its sensor are integrated into one assembly. How much of the rest of the camera is integrated in is anybody's guess (outside of RED). What I proposed is separating the lens portion out and adding a housing that would enclose the bulky electronics. The housing would screw to a Cinema brain with four screws in the corners just like a lens mounting plate.

 

[Solomon Nero]

Personally, I am worried about accessories and media. Accessories are priced more for the Epic then the scarlet market I think, and more for the bigger budget film makers. I know the Scarlet will be priced fairly. But the media alone... Me, I would be comfy with 3 128gig SSDs. For the projected data rate the scarlet will shoot, that seems like that could get me through a full day of shooting. That right there is 5,400 bucks in JUST media. even 3 64gb SSDs is 2850. Thats the price of the original interchangeable body, plus some change I think.

I also REALLY want a bomb EVF...but yeah...just dreaming at that point. I guess im hoping that when the scarlet bundles come out, I hope they just supply 2 64gb cards in there really cheap...

Sorry for the rant. This has just been my fears as of late...and I wanted to hear some of your opinions about media and accessories. Because if I could save some money there...I think I could be ok getting a Scarlet

Im so excited for Nov 3rd!!

 

[Eric Rodemann]

Eric, I think you misunderstood my proposal. And I'm just passing time speculating, so not too invested in any ideas, and probably not explaining them sufficiently.

The assembly pictured shows that the Fixed zoom and its sensor are integrated into one assembly. How much of the rest of the camera is integrated in is anybody's guess (outside of RED). What I proposed is separating the lens portion out and adding a housing that would enclose the bulky electronics. The housing would screw to a Cinema brain with four screws in the corners just like a lens mounting plate.

Im not an engineer, but I don't think that works.

IMO, you cannot design the camera so that a new electronic package fits in the same camera as the fixed, for an interchangeable lens.

Or maybe you COULD, but it would be like designing a car that can turn into a boat. Can you do that? Sure. But it's twice as expensive as buying a car and a boat, and doesn't work as well as either.

Rather than go to the added expense and complication of something capable of that, it's far cheaper and easier to just make an interchangeable camera that accepts a nice zoom lens.

The whole idea of manufacturing a fixed lens camera first, is that it is MUCH easier than making an interchangeable lens camera. That's why most prosumer camera are fixed lens. Becuase it takes an entire redesign to make it work with a bunch of different lenses, and it is a much more costly and complex process.