detachable back plate for buttons, similar to a car stereo's detachable face?

[Cam McGrath]

If the control pots (2 of course, switchable to CH3,4 in menu) were located on the back, this would suit perfectly for work with a sound rec...then perhaps a single pot on the very front, somewhere under the lens mount that could have say either CH 1 or 2 assigned to it...for riding levels on the fly of either an external mic or the camera mic...auto gain in my opinion works well enough to have it, should you find yourself in a situation that warrants its use, but where possible should be avoided.

 

[Eric MacIver]

Why the dumb side? Wouldn't the camera op require easy access for ENG shoulder mounted run-&-gun type stuff? There seems to be room on the left SMART SIDE of the camera - just in front of the data port / flash unit.

I think the smart side is OK, but generally in narrative, it's nice when the op/ac are on the smart side of the camera, that if there's a sound issue, sound can come make a quick tweak without interfering with those two.

For ENG ops, it generally isn't too difficult to remember which knobs correspond to each channel on the right (dumb) side of the camera... So the left hand comes up and supports the camera while the right hand slides back and makes the adjustment without ever taking they eye off the viewfinder (where the audio level readouts are).

It's also nice when it's on the dumb side because there's a very distinct separation - VIDEO controls on the smart side, AUDIO controls on the dumb side - less room for mistakes.

Though, perhaps I'm in the minority with this train of thought.

 

[Finner]

If the control pots (2 of course, switchable to CH3,4 in menu) were located on the back, this would suit perfectly for work with a sound rec...then perhaps a single pot on the very front, somewhere under the lens mount that could have say either CH 1 or 2 assigned to it...for riding levels on the fly of either an external mic or the camera mic...auto gain in my opinion works well enough to have it, should you find yourself in a situation that warrants its use, but where possible should be avoided.

I think it is probably best to put audio controls together and not have 1 switch here and 1 switch there kind of situation.

 

[Finner]

I think the smart side is OK, but generally in narrative, it's nice when the op/ac are on the smart side of the camera, that if there's a sound issue, sound can come make a quick tweak without interfering with those two.

For ENG ops, it generally isn't too difficult to remember which knobs correspond to each channel on the right (dumb) side of the camera... So the left hand comes up and supports the camera while the right hand slides back and makes the adjustment without ever taking they eye off the viewfinder (where the audio level readouts are).

It's also nice when it's on the dumb side because there's a very distinct separation - VIDEO controls on the smart side, AUDIO controls on the dumb side - less room for mistakes.

Though, perhaps I'm in the minority with this train of thought.

From experience it would become quite a pain to have to switch hands to reach around and set the audio level. Also if there is a HD lens on with a hand mount and zoom like on every beta and HD camera out it would be pretty much impossible to switch hands.

Your narritive sound point is actually almost a non issue. The sound guy sets the level on the camera to tone before you begin shooting and then locks those channels. From there the sound man will do all control of sound from his mixer so unless there is a sound meltdown (in which case the OP and AC would want to step back and let the sound guy do his job) the problem of the sound guy getting in the way will happen very very rarely.

 

[Eric MacIver]

From experience it would become quite a pain to have to switch hands to reach around and set the audio level. Also if there is a HD lens on with a hand mount and zoom like on every beta and HD camera out it would be pretty much impossible to switch hands.

Your narritive sound point is actually almost a non issue. The sound guy sets the level on the camera to tone before you begin shooting and then locks those channels. From there the sound man will do all control of sound from his mixer so unless there is a sound meltdown (in which case the OP and AC would want to step back and let the sound guy do his job) the problem of the sound guy getting in the way will happen very very rarely.

I agree about switching hands... I guess I'm just thinking that on some of the cameras I've shot with, the controls have been on the smart side but they've been impossible to adjust without "bumping" the shot. That would need to be avoided.

You're also right about the sound guy getting in the way - though I have had that happen on a few occassions, and it's best not to lose the take whenever possible. Of course if they have a mixer, as they usually do it's still a non-issue.

Regardless, I think the best situation is to have four easily reachable levels in an area completely seperate from any video controls.

 

[Martin Drew]

Your right Nick every profesional camera HD/beta that I have worked with has audio limiters as a feature but they are only used in rare occasions. Most profesionals take the 10 seconds or so to set a level themselves.

I disagree. The limiter is not to set level, it is to protect against overload. Sure you set the level but when someone unexpectedly shrieks next to the mic, the audio limits gracefully rather than clips. I view a pair of limiters switchable to stereo as pretty much essential for uncontrolled environments.

What you are describing sounds more like the auto gain control.

M

 

[ericyoung]

Cables and ergonomics

Cables and ergonomics

Had some thoughts (related ergonomics topic) on the body form in this post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1388#post1388

Any thoughts on these Stuart?

Thanks!
Eric

 

[Gordon Prince]

The picture shows a possible new "status display" position that is easy for a shooter to see and control during a work. A shooter just have to move head and eye a bit on the right side especially in a handheld situation (on the fly) when he/she moves with the camera because does not need to turn and move whole head back to see what is written at the "status display" like it would be with the old position. I think it is very important part of the camera design and usability. But only if it's possible to turn and place it on the left side. If not we should take it like it is now.

Agreed... but taking this one:

It's mountable pretty much wherever you might need it.

I'm lost... where do I miss the point? Didn't you notice it first, Third Man? Or do I miss something here?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Agreed... but taking this one:

I'm lost... where do I miss the point? Didn't you notice it first, Third Man? Or do I miss something here?

It is about a status display, LCD is another thing.

"My dream" showed me something like:..."on the side it has a high contrast status display that is highly visible in direct sunlight and with adjustable back-lighting - for current timecode, fps, shutter, ISO, audio modulometer, etc."
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=249

 

[Stuart English]

Status display

Status display

The status display is on the back. Not the left side nor the right.

There is a secondary HD-LCD video dispay that you can mount anywhere you wish on the camera frame that will allow operators ( such as an A/C ) that need to see details such as fps, shutter, framing etc those capabilities.

For the cameraman, your'e going to be looking in the viewfinder, or perhaps this second HD-LCD, so the data is already there.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks, I've got it! Finally!!!

 

[Finner]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

We need to break each of these case out for a full discussion ..

BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..

Hi Stuart

Did you get the input you were looking for with these questions?

 

[Finner]

Stuart I see you just posted.

I was just wondering if you got the input back that you were asking for here?

Is there any more information or ideas you would like on this?

 

[Stuart English]

Feedback

Feedback

YUP - thanks all...

 

[Gopher77]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

If you are operating with an A/C and/or a sound guy how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? Two, four, none ? Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

We need to break each of these case out for a full discussion ..

BTW: Audio level meters are available in the EVF, the attach where you like HD-LCD disply and can be made available in the rear status monitor if nedeed..

What I find if I'm in a single operator setting I'm not riding sound levels, I take a sound test before camera rolls and hope the talent doesn't get too excited during the take. So in a single camera situation I don't think it matters much. Now what I do to cover, if I have only one mic in use is I split the audio to both inputs and run one a little hotter then the other, so if one side clips I have the other. With four inputs this will work even better. If I have an AC I have never had them ride sound I would not want anyone touching the camera, taking a chance on bumping the picture to adjust a sound level. That just doesn't seem practical, so again it wouldn't matter. I don't even like an AC pulling focus without a whip.

If I'm running dual sound I'll probably have a wireless feed to the camera for synch sound only, the sound levels will be done by the mixer and recored elsewhere.

So as far as the sound pots go, anywhere I can get to them without major effort to set sound levels in an audio test right before the camera rolls. I like the kind that click in and out. You can push it and it pops out to adjust levels. Then push it back in so you don't inadverently move it.

 

[Finner]

Gopher

If you read back in this thread I believe you will find info on everything you mention. I don't believe anyone mentioned a camera man actually riding the audio durring a shot. Although sometimes in an ENG/EFP shooting position a camera man does not have the luxury of doing a sound test with the subject as it may be a scrum or high level VIP walking by the camera.

As far as the best place to put the audio pots I think most people came to the conclusion that they would be best to be on the camera smart side as ENG/EFP operators are often balancing the camera on there shoulder and holding it with there right hands. So your left hand is free to adjust focus, T-stop, zoom (if not on right hand grip) and the audio pots if you find it is necesary to adjust them. I agree with you that it is best to set the audio levels before hand but sometimes things change in a hurry and sometimes the level they are set at in the begining are wrong.

PS- I think you will find if you have the chance to work with a really experienced AC you will not even notice them pulling focus. I have also been in the position of working with a heavy handed focus puller, not fun.

 

[Finner]

I think the back panel is over-rated. Think of it as the small LCD on the top right of a DSLR. Quick setting info. All the major info will be on the screen (color LCD or EVF). Moving the back panel around would be a waste of time.

Jim

When this thread started I had no idea all the pertinent info would be in the EVF or color LCD. After learning that and that there would be adjustment buttons on the smart side everything made sense.

Just one question have you decided if there will be some form of a button lock to avoid them being bumped accidently after being set?

Thanks for you and your teams openness to opinions.

 

[ericyoung]

...if I have only one mic in use is I split the audio to both inputs and run one a little hotter then the other, so if one side clips I have the other. With four inputs this will work even better....So as far as the sound pots go ... I like the kind that click in and out. You can push it and it pops out to adjust levels. Then push it back in so you don't inadvertently move it.

It would be good to be able to switch a single mic to any or all of the inputs for this reason. Although the push in/out knobs are good - the spring strength is important. Too light, and the knobs pop out too easy, too strong and the camera could be nudged everytime the knobs are pushed! Ergonomics make a huge difference.

 

[Mark B.]

Or inset the knobs so that the fingers have to reach into a depression to make contact with the knob.

 

[Joel Kaye]

This is the kind of detail that needs to be added in to aid the disucssion.

If the camera is in a single user situation, on your shoulder, how many channels of audio are you adjusting the levels of ? One, two - two as a stereo pair, if so that's effectivley one again. Where do you want those "pots" to be in this case?

To me I think 4 knobs on the left of the camera is the way to go but a 1/2 and 3/4 switch would work. For that much real estate why not just stick 4 small knobs there? 4 knobs is more ergonomic and probably easier to do.

Also, another trick we've been using for years is mapping one audio input to multiple tracks and having each track set to different input levels.

IMAGINE you're running and gunning with one microphone recording to all 4 tracks. All 4 tracks are set to different levels thus giving you a VERY wide dynamic range that could be chopped together in post. Ideally you would be able to map any audio input to any track.

That exact setup (with 1 mic mapped to 2 tracks with different levels) has really saved my butt many times. One of the two tracks usually gets something usable.

Get a JVC HD-100. They do it pretty well for two tracks. At the bare MINIMUM the HD-100 amount of functionality should be built into RED.

edit - guess I should have read the whole thread first. I see others have mentioned similar ideas.