Delivery for Christie, Barco, Sony 4K...

[I Bloom]

I just went and saw The Brave One at my local cinema hear in Brooklyn. I feel out of the loop, because suddenly the whole place is using Christie digital projection.

Not so hot one that movie... but now I'm wondering, what does it take to deliver to these theatres. What is the format? Is it possible to cut a film in REDCODE and compress it for Christie on the system in my studio?

IBloom

 

[M Most]

what does it take to deliver to these theatres. What is the format? Is it possible to cut a film in REDCODE and compress it for Christie on the system in my studio?

The distribution format for digital cinema is the Digital Cinema Package.

www.dcimovies.com

And no, what you are suggesting is not done by individuals, and it is not simple. It involves a lot more than compression. Read the spec then ask more questions if you want.

 

[Chris Kenny]

As nearly as I can tell there's no actual technical reason why one shouldn't be able to turn out a DCI package using desktop software. There just isn't any such software available in the open market at present.

 

[Bruce Allen]

The distribution format for digital cinema is the Digital Cinema Package.

www.dcimovies.com

And no, what you are suggesting is not done by individuals, and it is not simple. It involves a lot more than compression. Read the spec then ask more questions if you want.

By coincidence I'm trying to help my producer buddy navigate through that DCI spec because his film just got selected for as the official South African Oscar submission and they want it in that format.

I know that for distribution you're talking about encrypting things and packing it all up in some kind of happy mxf bundle... but at the minimum I'd heard you could get away with a stack of JPEG2000 files and an audio file or two as long as you dotted your p's and q's with respect to naming, folders, etc? Haven't found the precise info in their huge pdf yet and I'm trying to get them some info but...

Mmost, any advice here would be hugely appreciated

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Jason Murphy]

As nearly as I can tell there's no actual technical reason why one shouldn't be able to turn out a DCI package using desktop software. There just isn't any such software available in the open market at present.

You might theoretically be able to make a DCI package using some form of (nonexistent) desktop software. It would probably take a very long time, regardless. However, I'm not sure you'd be able to test it or do realtime playback without some serious hardware. And that would seem to be kind of important.

 

[David Newman]

One reason CineForm got selected for Digital Cinema deployment for a 300 screen theater group in India, is the DCI compliance / obfuscation makes it expensive and impractical to produce local content. Plus JPEG2000 is slow. The E-Cinema "standard" for non-DCI theaters (most are still not DCI), is mostly 80Mbs MPEG2, which limits you 1080p 4:2:2. That you can encode yourself, however there are still DCP packing to deal with.

 

[Chris Kenny]

You might theoretically be able to make a DCI package using some form of (nonexistent) desktop software. It would probably take a very long time, regardless. However, I'm not sure you'd be able to test it or do realtime playback without some serious hardware. And that would seem to be kind of important.

Yeah, real-time playback probably isn't happening anytime in the next few years without a custom ASIC in the loop. I can't think of any particular reason why that ASIC would cost a lot, but of course if someone makes a device that does this (think of it like an Io HD except for JPEG 2000 sequences rather than ProRes), it'll almost certainly be sold at standard film production industry markup, i.e. it'll cost tens of thousands of dollars even though the material costs aren't particularly high.

Maybe Red will make a low-cost DCI media server to go with the 4K projector they're supposedly working on. :biggrin:

 

[M Most]

By coincidence I'm trying to help my producer buddy navigate through that DCI spec because his film just got selected for as the official South African Oscar submission and they want it in that format.

Mmost, any advice here would be hugely appreciated

The best advice I can give you at this point in time is to have them call either Modern Videofilm, Deluxe Digital Services, Laser Pacific, FotoKem, or Ascent Media and have one of them do it. If you actually want it to play on an existing server, that's the best way to ensure that it will. Creating DCP's is not trivial, regardless of how much you want to think you can do it. It involves specific reel formatting, specific frame sizing, colorspace conversion, compression, specific wrapping formats, specific audio formats, and specific XML files - not to mention that the color correction of the piece itself needs to be checked in a DCI spec projection environment if you want any assurance that it will look like what you expect it to look like. And if they want encryption, you're getting into many other issues I won't even bother to discuss here. It is foolhardy at this stage to think you can accomplish this yourself, regardless of how technically adept you might be.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Mmost, thanks for the good advice - I'll pass it on to my friend. Another friend put me in touch with Jose at Fotokem already so we'll see how it goes.

Agree that it sounds like a deliberately obfuscated format and a real pain to do yourself. Frame sizing and colorspace conversion no problem, custom XML & encryption no thanks.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Emanuel A.]

Five star thread.

 

[M Most]

Frame sizing and colorspace conversion no problem, custom XML & encryption no thanks.

The other issue is the one of being able to check the result once the DCP is made. The only way to play a DCP is on a DCI compliant digital cinema server, and the only way to see the result is to output it to a DCI compatible projector that can do the color space conversion from XYZ back to RGB during projection. Unless you happen to have a digital cinema server and a DLP Cinema projector handy, it's unlikely that you can do this. Without the ability to check the product you're sending out, even the ability to make it is rather pointless. You can't send out deliverables that you haven't checked.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

The best advice I can give you at this point in time is to have them call either Modern Videofilm, Deluxe Digital Services, Laser Pacific, FotoKem, or Ascent Media and have one of them do it...

Bruce,

Contact me offlist at lucas at assimilateinc dot com and I can put you in touch with the specific people at Modern, Technicolor, Ascent, and Fotokem that would handle this.

I can also tell you where to get the best homemade Biltong in town, but that's an entirely different conversation.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Bruce Allen]

I'm a lucky guy. Thank you so much!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[liquidigital]

The other issue is the one of being able to check the result once the DCP is made. The only way to play a DCP is on a DCI compliant digital cinema server, and the only way to see the result is to output it to a DCI compatible projector that can do the color space conversion from XYZ back to RGB during projection. Unless you happen to have a digital cinema server and a DLP Cinema projector handy, it's unlikely that you can do this. Without the ability to check the product you're sending out, even the ability to make it is rather pointless. You can't send out deliverables that you haven't checked.

mmost thankyou for your contributions. Reading your posts answers so many questions for me. I was reading submissions requirements for festival shorts, came across DCP and was grossly uninformed about the process.

 

[I Bloom]

The best advice I can give you at this point in time is to have them call either Modern Videofilm, Deluxe Digital Services, Laser Pacific, FotoKem, or Ascent Media and have one of them do it.

IBloom grumbles: "I sense more gatekeepers! Where's a wall to make people stand against when you need it."

I understand that color grading for DCI takes a well calibrated projection room, a powerful realtime system, and a spec projector. Beyond that the actual task of creating the proper files and putting them on the media that runs the theatrical projector should not be beyond the ability of any computer. Bits are bits, code is code. DRM for protecting copyrighted material is one thing... but DRM for media creation is plain evil.

IBloom

 

[ckalan1]

Digital Distribution Services

Digital Distribution Services

Hometown Studio & Distribution Company, Inc. sells Digital Distribution Services. You can contact me at ckitchens@hometownstudio.com for information and rates.

 

[I Bloom]

Hometown Studio & Distribution Company, Inc. sells Digital Distribution Services. You can contact me at ckitchens@hometownstudio.com for information and rates.

Can you give more details about the services you provide?

IBloom

 

[GlennChan]

IBloom grumbles: "I sense more gatekeepers! Where's a wall to make people stand against when you need it."

I'm not sure where the gatekeeping is... right now, indie film festivals (and others) are renting out movie theatres to screen their films.

2a- What usually keeps out independent films is marketing + distribution.

I don't believe the technology of making a DCP really keeps you out of the game. There are other ways of projecting material (e.g. send HD-SDI to the projector from a VTR or other playback device). And the cost of making a DCP is likely insignificant compared to Hollywood marketing budgets.

2b- Theatres are only one of many distribution methods/mediums. Now you can target niche markets with Youtube, DVD, etc. And you can advertise to niche markets through the Internet. So for theatres you may be limited by marketing + distribution but you have other avenues.

I understand that color grading for DCI takes a well calibrated projection room, a powerful realtime system, and a spec projector. Beyond that the actual task of creating the proper files and putting them on the media that runs the theatrical projector should not be beyond the ability of any computer. Bits are bits, code is code.

Yes but... what good is that if you're not sure if your package works and looks+sounds right?

 

[I Bloom]

I'm not sure where the gatekeeping is... right now, indie film festivals (and others) are renting out movie theatres to screen their films.

2a- What usually keeps out independent films is marketing + distribution.

I don't believe the technology of making a DCP really keeps you out of the game. There are other ways of projecting material (e.g. send HD-SDI to the projector from a VTR or other playback device). And the cost of making a DCP is likely insignificant compared to Hollywood marketing budgets.

2b- Theatres are only one of many distribution methods/mediums. Now you can target niche markets with Youtube, DVD, etc. And you can advertise to niche markets through the Internet. So for theatres you may be limited by marketing + distribution but you have other avenues.


Yes but... what good is that if you're not sure if your package works and looks+sounds right?

Point taken.

I think the difficulty is in the hours spent color correcting, and the price per hour. The guys at Photokem told me they spent a million dollars on each DI Grading room, perhaps more. I'm not sure how much of that is real estate but there is a lot of inflated cost there. And you know how much those rooms go per hour. I'm sure that is returned to the filmmakers in value and skill, but it's still a barrier for most indie filmmakers.

Consider that most HD films going to festivals have no idea what projector will be used to screen their film. Their color correction is essentially "relative"...done on an HD monitor and relative from shot to shot. At that point it starts making more sense to create ones own DCI packages. If you shot on RED and are sending to festivals that have DCI than there is no benefit to sending them HD. In fact much to my dismay I've watched some of my HD work projected at a festival in the wrong aspect ratio. So there was a benefit their for me of having a standard package, even if the color was slightly off or the blacks weren't exactly what I wanted. Coming from a RED camera there is the added benefit of showing how much resolution you have captured.

So I guess my point is: Is it better to pay a lab to finish your digital film? yes. Is there still a market and a need to bypass this step? Most definitely.

IBloom

 

[Lucas Wilson]

IBloom grumbles: "I sense more gatekeepers! Where's a wall to make people stand against when you need it."

By the time you get to the point where you really *need* a DCP, then someone else will be paying for it.

I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong - but I don't know of a single festival that requires DCPs. They are exclusively used for wide-release Studio features. If you have a wide-release Studio feature, you are very very far from having to worry about how the DCP will be made.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA