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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Delay news... sort of.

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As to why cars cost less than some tripods (and I'm not sure that's true):
http://economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/economies_of_s.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

To answer your question, sure, you can get a cheaper, lighter-weight head and sticks for something like the RED camera, just below a certain point, you won't get as much stability when you operate a shot -- the head needs a certain mass to be able to smooth-out the motion of the camera. You don't necessarily need a head designed for 35mm motion picture work. Something built for a typical ENG camcorder would work.

You can also look into getting something used. For example, doing a Google search under "used sachtler head" yields things like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sachtler-7-7-Fl...ryZ30095QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Tripod manufacturers generally rate their products by how much weight they are designed to handle, so just pick a head appropriate to the typical weight of the RED camera with its accessories.

I'm sure if you look around in the used market, you can find something in your budget range of $3000.
 
Hey Jonathan. I think you should look into O'Connor's 1030 series tripods. It'll still cost you around 6k but that's better than 13. You can't really compare a car to a porfessional tripod head. Everybody has a car. Not many people have pro level heads. That alone is going to affect the price greatly. Ask Curt from CVB about what makes tripods expensive. They are not as simple as they may seem. Also, try toning down your postings. You'll get better responses. Everything's not so black and white. Trust me, the people at arri and chrosziel and sachtler/oconnor aren't all rolling into work with Bentleys and laughing about how they are grossly overcharging their "stupid" customers.
 
Greg Voevodsky said:
For those trying to make a super profit by being first, like selling water after a hurricane... I'd say be happy to be the first to help people or show your incredible talent. In the long run, you will profit from RED because of your talent and not the medium. If you are trying to profit from RED rather than your talent... well Karma will prevail.
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So that is to say that I can't profit financially and show my talent at the same time?

Shucks! :huh:
 
strange?

strange?

for me you are right, it's strange, but from the biz pov its clear. you need to wait, to pull in more buyers. but they track you down, once you sell your cam, and cancel your res. hmmmm

bluestar said:
1) Will early reservations end up becoming a pointless investment in regards to those who reserved before NAB?

2) Upgrades? I already assumed the camera specs are as is displayed on the red.com website; does this mean otherwise?

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.


I'm still a firm red believer and will keep my reservation, but not for long if news continues like this. I'm just very unsatisfied, venting, and would really like to know why the big players are getting access to it when I'm sure a majority of them we're in disbelief up until NAB reviews.
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The way it is

The way it is

There seems to be an assumption that opportunities to display one's talent are proportional to the amount of talent you have - not so much. With a little thought we could each name talented people that never get the big break, marginally talented people who have sweet deals, etc. What about highly talented creators who push the envelope a bit too far and end up with a mess? Are they less worthy of respect than a producer who plays it safe and cranks out formulaic tripe that scores financially?

Am I disappointed that my low rezzie didn't get me past the velvet ropes the way I might have fantasized? Of course, but that doesn't entitle me to anything. Jim is disappointed that he doesn't have a finished production camera to ship. Life is full of disappointments. You play the cards you're dealt.

Jim gets the hero worship around here because he "gets it". I feel incredibly lucky to be able to benefit from his vision. I'm not saying that to kiss up, its just the way it is.
 
I don't want to "cheap out" on a tripod, but also from talking to some other people they didn't seem to think it would be necessary to have like a $12,000 tripod.

Initially I would much prefer to buy something more within budget, if that costs $3,000 but it's a good tripod that will give me high quality movements and stability, then it's worth it. But I'd rather start with something like that for now than buy something that's three times as much before I even make a dime on the equipment. It would make more sense to me to make enough money first so that hopefully at some point if I don't care about spending $8,000+ on a tripod, I could do it, because of the money I made, but to throw myself too far into the hole initially seems like it wouldn't be too smart.

Do many professional DPs have really good tripods of their own? Like if you were to hire a professional DP for a shoot, and they really liked working with X tripod, any chance they'd actually have it? Or do they mostly rent, too?

Thanks for various recommendations. We'll definitely look into them. I was under the impression that with a tripod it's not just about how much weight it can hold, but also how smoothly it would be able to move. But maybe that's not correct. The first tripod I ever owned was about a $70 tripod ;) The next was a few hundred. Now the one we use is $600, which works just fine for an HDV cam, it's a nice tripod actually. It's just hard for me to imagine that something 2-3 times the weight can end up costing 10 times as much money, but I guess that is how it goes. If they don't sell very many tripods at that high end level, it makes more sense, but I still can't buy into what a lot of people in this industry seem to believe either from years of being here or just thinking "that's the way things are." I mean "the way things are" was a Sony F900 costing six times more than a RED even though the camera is six times less resolution and inferior in every respect to the RED. So when people tell me, "Well you know, they don't make that many tripods, so they cost an outrageous sum of money." It's just a lot harder to justify that kind of expense. When a computer of the same price would be able to do so much for your film and a tripod basically just is where the camera sits. You don't even need one. You could definitely (and people have, like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind for the most part) make a professional movie without it, and in 4K you could use Motion to stabilize shots later, it'd still be cheaper and easier than buying a $12,000 tripod. But I guess the reasoning in this industry is that since people rent so much, they can sell it to the rental houses, then they can rent it for $100 or $200 a day, whatever it is, and nobody complains too much because relative to a massive production it's not a big deal.

To me, though, being on the reasonable scale trying to make professional grade projects with a reasonable sum of money it seems very overpriced. It's easy to say not that many people need such a great tripod, but if you could offer a great tripod for $2,000 you'd find a lot more people WOULD buy it, the RED business model proves that. That's all I'm saying. You make something a self-fulfilling prophecy if you say, "Well only 1,000 people in the entire world really need something this good, so let's make it cost like $8,000 because otherwise we won't make enough money to make this worthwhile." Eventually I'm just hoping someone else comes along and says, "If we charged $2,000, our margins would be much smaller, but we think we can find 8,000 people who want this tripod at least." Until then I guess the industry is held hostage by car-priced tripods.

I'm a college graduate, my dad is one of the West Coast's biggest businessmen, I fully understand economics. You still can't convince me that there's any justification for a tripod costing $12,000. For me, there simply isn't. Now other people may feel perfectly justified in paying that if they make millions of dollars and that slight extra advantage, the extra 5% that you get out of something like that, really makes the difference to them. And hey if that's the case, awesome, wish I were making that much money in the industry. But I'm not convinced me buying an $8,000+ tripod instead of a $3,000 tripod is going to result in $5,000 or more in added revenue either directly or indirectly. *shrug*
 
JonathanLB said:
Could I ask the experts here an honest question in hopes of whatever they believe is a truthful answer?

I mean is it really true that we cannot have a good, professional grade tripod for less than $8,000? I really thought that we could get something good for about $3,000, because of the low weight of the RED and whatnot, but if everyone else says that's impossible I guess we'll have to re-evaluate.
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Hey Jonathon,

I paid the equivalent of $14,000 for my O'Connor 2575c. I owned and used it for 4 years on a series of professional gigs and then sold it for $,9000. During that period, forgetting about asset depreciation and tax breaks, I charged it out for over $20,000 as part of my rate. Not a bad deal and reflective of it's worth. I never got into a situation where I couldn't use it on any camera due to payload from 35mm Panaflex to HD shooting on an Arri D20.

However, and for me more important than this, I got a piece of kit that enabled me to do my job with finesse. The quality of movement on this head is wonderful, the counterbalance system is second to none. I fell in love with the way it moved, the amount of friction it induced allowing you to stop dead on a frame at the end of a whip pan, completely different from the Sachtler and Ronford systems.

The question you should ask yourself is how much do you have to pay to get what you want. Try out some heads, I'm sure the rental houses won't mind you going in and trying their stock and find out what suits you. Then cut the best deal for what you need.

Mike C:ph34r:
 
Hey Mike,

Well David and I discussed this, and if it's possible to make the money back that we'd spend buying it, then it's much easier to justify. I mean if everyone in the industry puts such a high value on these extremely expensive tripods, and their value doesn't plummet when they are used (sounds like you got a good amount back, too), then it makes a lot more sense financially. At that point you're not throwing away $14,000, you're just investing it in something that will pay off.

I guess what we need to see is whether we end up renting out the RED very much, because if we do and we get very professional DPs I would imagine they'll demand a high quality tripod, and if that's basically a deal-breaker, i.e. they can't rent from us if we don't offer all the camera equipment they need, then there's really no choice -- you can't be losing business because of one piece of equipment you don't have. So it's a matter of direction for us, though, if we are shooting our own stuff and find a much cheaper tripod that does a great job, great, we'll use it.
 
Jonathon,

Easy to do. Phone your local prefessional hire house and ask them how much it would cost to hire what you need to buy. Make your mind up from there. There's also the back up factor. I have links with facilities in the UK who would service my gear and / or provide a replacement if necessary. I know that Red is very competitively priced but you're still up against all the other companies who haven't adopted Red's marketing strategy.

Just think the lense set, at a very good price, is more than the camera! But it knocks the socks off buying an Ultra Prime or Digi Prime!

Mike C
 
Yeah absolutely. I don't know why but I understand a lot more why lenses are expensive. I mean it's not hard to understand (for me) that if you didn't have great lenses, you don't have as good of shots, and since film is a visual medium... I realize that could apply to a tripod too, but lenses just make more sense to me as far as expense.

I'm slowly trying to figure out what our plan is in this industry, but the more I think about it the more I think it will make sense to be able to rent out my equipment. Let's say I film a feature, like this one I have in mind I think I can do in 3-4 weeks, seems crazy but it's all one location, 90 pages, no wardrobe changes, I think it's possible. Anyway regardless, say I film a feature, however long it takes, then there's going to be a much longer period in post-production where I will be actively involved (that's how I am with my work, would prefer to oversee it all even if I'm having other people do the work I like to be present and available for guidance). During that period if I can't be using my equipment anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to be able to rent it out at a reasonable cost to make some money while I'm otherwise occupied? Even if I am successful and have plenty of projects I can't imagine there wouldn't be open windows where to have that much equipment sitting around doing nothing would not be very smart. Unless I was just making so much I didn't care to have anyone else use my stuff, but that's not realistic for now or any time soon.

Also I thought more about it recently, when everyone says a highly professional shoot would want a backup camera available. At first I scoffed at that added price, but then I just realized... an extra RED camera body lying around is not expensive. I was thinking 2 x my entire RED package (lenses and all, $60,000 to $70,000), but actually I don't see why you'd need backup everything, if you had an extra RED body and maybe another charging kit, maybe a few more hard drives, you'd be able to offer those as extra on-set backups and not pass along that much extra cost. At least I wouldn't mind doing that. If I could charge $1,500 per day, 3 day rental weeks, with a loaded laptop on set for capturing, my camera package, a full assortment of lenses, EVF, LCD, maybe an HD reference monitor, plus backup camera body and batteries, etc. that wouldn't be half bad. It seems like that'd be a reasonable price, esp. if someone wanted to shoot 5 or 6 days and got all that for $4,500. Unless I'm crazy that seems like a great deal. But for me it would also be a fair amount of money...

Just a thought.

The REDHEAD, haha, I love that. That's just awesome.
 
Mike the beginner said:
I understand the feelings from the very early reservation holders. But lets look at this from reds point of view.

4 "major projects" could gain red another huge publicity/marketing hit with who knows maybe at least another 500 cameras ordered if the projects turn out positive for the red camera. The main advantage points for the red camera like 4k, price, dynamics etc will all shine through and make the camera even more known and talked about, which is likely to make it ever more sought after....
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I just finished teaching marketing to filmmakers on the college level for 3 years. Marketing is all about one word: PERCEPTION. When you've got the faithful chomping at the bit, people that will never "leave or forsake you" just like in a marriage--don't you want to make them happy too? Then everyone wins.

One camera, one red user. Simple. Anything else... :waaa:

I'm sorry, but let's get real here.
 
Realistically, you get an early res# up and running as a package and you can charge 5 day weeks! You wouldn't discount something that few people had and everyone wanted!

Hey Guys has anyone heard that Red cameras would be the ONLY cameras on these big budget movies? Or are they running alongside conventional and tested cameras.

Mike EC
 
I would think they'd run alongside tested cameras, but I could be wrong. That's ballsy if not, hehe.

Well I'm not an early res number Mike, I ordered post-NAB 2007 so I'm sure the market will be more full than it will be at first, by the time I get mine. Still, I think the minimum I'd get for a package like that would be $4,500 per week, considering that's actually about $125,000 in equipment and I'm going to have to cover insurance on all of that equipment, too, which I'm guessing will not be cheap.
 
I guess in these big budget films, RED will be used for second units and FX shots.

And that the cameras will afterwards be taken away from them.

If so, everything's good. Studios will be convinced of the potential and when the first production units come out, their market value will be multiplied.
 
#'s, Shnumbers.. let's forget 'boutit!

Has anyone used RED as a pickup line? (And succeeded?)

Think about it, 1 billion Chinese don't give a damn about RED. (I hope they don't otherwise we will have a RAD - Made in China soon)
 
Wow..Just in general. How soon we forget where we started. Most remember that first RED site, with the funny cars? No picture of any camera at all, just a taste of what was to come. At that time alot of you here were asking if it was a joke. Then came the big guessing game before NAB! (How much?) most guessed 40-100k and up. I don't recall anyone saying $17500. Then The zoom another guessing game ensued. I got to say you all are some bad guessers myself and moderators inclued. It is easy for a early reservation holder to say I had faith all along! faith in what? your guessing?.....All reservation holders have faith the camera will be built. And Jim has rewarded that faith with a generous bonus! Jim has said there will be alot of testing of the camera. I dont recall Jim saying reservation holders only. I for one am happy it is being tested by the top dogs first. No one is getting leap froged here. The way I understand it, we all get are RED ONE cameras in reservation order. So whoever is doing the testing don't get there camera out of order anyways. The production one I mean. Even if Jim made all the cameras in one day and shiped the all out at the same time I would still be happy. Please Jim Take all the time needed.....serve no wine before it's time.
 
The delay in the Red camera production is in fact a good thing,the feedback coming from those 4 film projects will be of enormous value to make the final Red camera right from the start.
So take your time.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Well, if anyone can figure out how to get a high-quality fluid head to market at low cost, it will be Jim -- the temptation to have a product called the REDHEAD may be great for him to ignore. :wink: Just imagine the marketing campaign...
Click to expand...

Only problem is there is the lighting by the same name so it might infringe given they're both used in movie production, but it does sound good.

RedFluid maybe? nah that just sounds like some kind of grim bodily fluid!!! :)
 
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