Delay news... sort of.

[Larry McKee]

We appreciate, more than you know, those that are hanging in there with us.

Jim

You don't know how much we appreciate all the hard work, endless hours, and valuable resources you and the team have put into making this camera possible. Then, after all the blood, sweat, and tears you are offering the cameras to us at an unbelievable price. And taking away as many obstacles as possible by giving us choices in recording options, camera configurations, and output formats. So, thank you once again for hanging in there with us.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

There are 4 major projects that will receive RED Beta prototypes. None will have audio and all will only record 4K REDCODE RAW.

Jim

There you go guys, that's the Principal "punishing" the bigger kids for cutting in line :matrix:

 

[PeteCoggan]

Wouldn't give up my reservation for any reason. I must say, though, I would like to know what cryteria are being used to define "Major Motion Picture". Waiting patiently for my serial numbers to come up even with a multimillion dollar budgets and shooting Celluloid in the meantime. If you've got a dinger, would love to know when "Named" cameras become an option.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Good, ran into some delays myself regarding funds (new developments [ie. plug ins, sound equipment, greenscreen, ect.] have eaten up more than expected). So the camera purchase can definitely wait a bit on my front! =)

 

[planet e]

but expecting an enormously special break for investing 1K is just a bit to much to ask.

second that. jim has actually set the bar low for reservation holders and high for himself.

us: put down $1000, with a better-than-money-back guarantee and a $2500 break on the camera or accessories.

him: design a complete 4K workflow, camera, and accessories from scratch in a year

 

[Finner]

There you go guys, that's the Principal "punishing" the bigger kids for cutting in line :matrix:

If the punishment is getting a camera before everybody else I am ready to take my licks.

 

[Keith Alan Morris]

Yep, feels like the good old days of elementary school where the big kids got to cut in line at the drinking fountain. At least in school the principal would punish the them for cutting in line if they were caught and not usher them to the front.

...big guys win and money talks.

Agreed, and I have a simple solution: Give the very first few RedUsers (those that post on this board) a camera, let em shoot, and let em post their work. Hell, let em share a camera if they're scarce.

Its all about the footage. Why not avoid a major shift in policy toward the big kids shooting (footage that will never be seen by us this year) by tossing a real Reduser poster a camera?

Just a thought.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

It's like NASCAR, RED needs the visibility and credibility the "bigger players" will provide. If Jeff Gorden went to a new car company and said he would
like to test out the new cars.....
This will get RED free publicity and that is the smartest thing they can
do. Go price what it costs to run a full page ad in a video mag or
on Creative Cow.....

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

See you at Cine Gear Jim....?

 

[Finner]

Sounds good RED GUY. I worked on Unforgiven, Legends of the fall, Jumanji, Shanghi noon,The edge and many other large features. So should I get my camera before Gibbys even though I have a camera reserve in the 900's?

Personally I don't think I should.

 

[Mike the beginner]

I understand the feelings from the very early reservation holders. But lets look at this from reds point of view.

4 "major projects" could gain red another huge publicity/marketing hit with who knows maybe at least another 500 cameras ordered if the projects turn out positive for the red camera. The main advantage points for the red camera like 4k, price, dynamics etc will all shine through and make the camera even more known and talked about, which is likely to make it ever more sought after....

The more red cameras sold the better for a variety of reasons. For me i want to see ten thousand red cameras out there and i want to see pro gear priced accordingly. That will never happen until volumes rise substantially perhaps.

Red camera = $17,500 fantastic value for what it will do and have.

Top quality tripod = $6,000

Top quality mattbox = $3,000

Top quality cine lens = $$$$$

Most other pro gear $$$$

Let me see now......tripod, what is involved in making this???

Mattbox...compare something to put filters in with a red one price comparison

Red One.....what is involved in making this.............Huge undertaking/ cost

The red one is not ready or complete. But the major parts needed to capture great footage does appear to be complete. Big projects are perhaps more interested in the main parts and much less interested in all the small parts that help assist and save money for the smaller budget guys (just guessing guys) so red gain max publicity with the big guys and sell many more cameras.

Production... Jim Jannard has always said right from the start that the camera will not be drip fed type of production. How many cameras can be mass produced per month taking into account some things might need to be checked individually so mass produced in a sense means most things mass produced but some things will greatly slow the process down. How slow i dont know just surmising really.

Just a beginners point of view really....

Mike the beginner

 

[Joel Kaye]

Originally it was forcasted that this camera would ship at the end of 2006. I mean, he sure doesn't have to, but he might. Santa sometimes returns to stuff the stocking a little higher

Yep - anyone who got in very early probably remembers the first estimates were that a few cameras would probably ship November/December 06. Then people started hoping NAB.

I thought I was being conservative last year when I told people that if they were guessing December then it would probably be May before I see mine. As it sits RED is a solid 8 months behind original estimates...

BUT it's a better camera and workflow now which makes it worth the wait.

PLUS - how many years are they still ahead of the competition?

 

[Andrew Benz]

Are any of the field testers reservation holders or members of this community at all?

If not then I only hope these shoots don't employ any of the many individuals who have been putting the camera down from the beginning. I don't mind others testing it but it's the thought of people who have said we're all crazy for buying into it getting their dirty mitts on the camera before any RedUsers ever get to . It'd be actually quite insulting to find someone who's been bashing the camera come on here to tell us all how good it is. I was also looking forward to this community being the ones to showcase the cameras capabilities to the world.

Nevermind though. :sad:

Paul, as usual, my sentiments exactly... honestly, this is such a multi-faceted issue-- I understand and feel the sentiments of most here, no matter which side of the the arguement. The bottom line is Jim and the RED Team need results, feedback for the betterment of the Camera and RED Community... even if we are out of the "early" loop. I simply wish some very early res holders like Gibby, Mark(OffHollywood), (just to name two--though most of you though are in these thoughts) would have been given the same opportunity-- no favoritism towards the studio elite, because if Jim had stated "WE HAVE RED RESERVATIONIST in the mix as well!"-- This would have eased the bitter pill (which I understand) for most.

Jim, having some early RES holders involved in this beta would have helped your cause (which is OUR cause). All that being said... there aren't any billionares busting their asses trying to greatly improve my life, much less deliver tools that I can (now) afford that leave me as the weakest link in the chain of acquisition... and I can shoot anything with anything (i have had too)...

I look forward to next Friday, I should be in my new loft aka live/work space:beta... my world has changed dramatically (for those that know me), now I just need a little RED in it.

Cheers to my fellow REDUSERS!

Andrew Benz

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Sounds good RED GUY. I worked on Unforgiven, Legends of the fall, Jumanji, Shanghi noon,The edge and many other large features. So should I get my camera before Gibbys even though I have a camera reserve in the 900's?

Personally I don't think I should.

Nope, the film/video business in general is just too competitive.
All is not fair in love and war or in the film business. If you
were directing a 50 million dollar feature I am sure Jim would
lend you a RED for a week or so.

 

[S. Um]

Yes, the big kids got to cut to the front of the line, but there's only 4 of them and they're only getting prototype cameras. I think this will help us in the long run because they will be testing the camera's functionality and workflow in a strenuous environment. Hopefully they can flush out the bugs and the production cameras will be more stable. And when people see the footage in the theaters, you and your camera are going to be in more demand. Who knows, maybe some of these productions are reservation holders, too.

And look at it from Jim's perspective. He invested a lot of time and money to make Red a great digital cinema camera. He needs to get the word out about Red, and there's no better way than with big Hollywood productions. He'll probably make more money from the indies, but having the camera used in big productions will certainly increase its cache with the indi crowd.

I'm sure Jim would love to have the production cameras shipping by now, but he doesn't. He's only got a few partially working prototypes, and he's got to put them to work where he'll get the most return.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Red camera = $17,500 fantastic value for what it will do and have.

Top quality tripod = $6,000

Top quality mattbox = $3,000

Top quality cine lens = $$$$$

Most other pro gear $$$$



Just a beginners point of view really....

Mike the beginner

Curt 'CVB' is working on a Matte Box - $1,000???

Tripods are way overpriced....I would love to see a REDPOD.

RED is working on the lenses.....

The competition is heating up in the ProGear arena....

I don't think this has sunk-in on the big bloated companies yet?
May take a while longer, but it is all clearly turning in the Indies favor.
Now if we could work on the distribution channels......................

 

[Greg Voevodsky]

For all reservation holders, just be thankful that we are getting an incredible camera. This is like the first private flights into space at affordable rates.

Jim is the Burt Rutan of cameras. It's never been done. It will be done when it is done - not according to a man made deadline, rather when it works, and works well. Otherwise, RED and us will lose all respect when the camera does not perform. Best to wait, get camera, practice, then shoot for the stars.

People make predictions, predictions are often wrong. It will be done when Jim says it is period and that is how it should be. (Personally, I think Jim should be more like the Halo creators and say when it done and it's what I want, then it will be done.)

For those trying to make a super profit by being first, like selling water after a hurricane... I'd say be happy to be the first to help people or show your incredible talent. In the long run, you will profit from RED because of your talent and not the medium. If you are trying to profit from RED rather than your talent... well Karma will prevail.

No matter how painful, take your time Jim, let the pros find the flaws in professional testing (like Enzo Ferrari in racing) and when you are ready to sell us what shot a 100 million dollar film this July, we will be ready to buy all of your supply.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Could I ask the experts here an honest question in hopes of whatever they believe is a truthful answer?

How much should one really pay for a good tripod for the RED? David and I went to Birns & Sawyer two days ago, talked to a guy who claims to know Jim and sold him three cameras back in the day, and this guy was saying that to get anything even half-way decent, in his words, would cost us $8,000 and "really" we should buy this $12,000 tripod. Now maybe I'm showing my inexperience here, but in my book a tiny hunk of metal isn't worth $12,000 when you can go buy a brand new car for $12,000 that has 3,000 of materials that went into it, an engine, electrics, A/C, heat, a radio, CD player, etc. If you can get a car for $12,000, someone is really having fun making $12,000 on a freakin' tripod. It's quite possibly one of the world's simplest tools. I understand everything in this industry is ridiculously overpriced, and it's almost a badge of honor to brag about how much you spent (wasted) on equipment, I guess, but is that really necessary?

I mean is it really true that we cannot have a good, professional grade tripod for less than $8,000? I really thought that we could get something good for about $3,000, because of the low weight of the RED and whatnot, but if everyone else says that's impossible I guess we'll have to re-evaluate. I just personally cannot believe that. I would honestly be better off hiring a machinist and having it made myself rather than paying $12,000 for it. Now if it was holding a 150 pound 35mm film camera or something I might be able to understand that, but the RED and its attachments shouldn't weigh more than 20-25 pounds I don't think from looking at the specs.

 

[Greg Voevodsky]

JonathanLB,

Use your common sense and budget. I 'd go with the 3000 price and spend more money with RED lenses, jibs, steadycams than overspending on the Ferrari of tripods, when a Corvette at 1/3 the price has similar performance.

 

[Häakon]

For those trying to make a super profit by being first, like selling water after a hurricane... I'd say be happy to be the first to help people or show your incredible talent. In the long run, you will profit from RED because of your talent and not the medium. If you are trying to profit from RED rather than your talent... well Karma will prevail.

I haven't gotten that vibe from anyone; in particular, my point about releasing the cameras in the order that the reservation holders signed up wasn't about cashing in early but rather just getting those cameras into our hands so we can actually begin shooting with them. No one has to remind anyone that there are already 1,500+ people waiting. If there are cameras out there going to "major motion pictures," then it's obvious that they are usable, even if all of the features aren't enabled yet. As early reservation holders, we were told our cameras wouldn't be fully enabled from the get-go anyway, so we were kind of expecting that already. Heck, Peter Jackson made an incredible movie with an "alpha" prototype - and that was over two months ago! So the point was not that anyone was upset about there being delays - we know that these things aren't in their control - but rather that we'd like to see the cameras dolled out in the order that people signed up for them, that's all. With all the perceived seriousness about "no reservations being transferable," you'd think the same would apply to the first cameras off the line - "beta" or not. As someone else posted, even if these cameras are intended to be replaced by "production level" cameras at some point, I guarantee you the first four people in line would be more than happy to be the "beta testers" in this situation.

I also realize that it's great publicity for RED to get these cameras out to better-known directors and cinematographers for their own marketing advantages, there's no question about that. But RED's mantra up until this point has mostly been about being inclusive of everyone as possible (the low price point, being active on public forums, taking suggestions, etc.) and not just catering to the "major motion picture" guys. They're entitled to do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that some decisions aren't going to ruffle some feathers.

I feel like we're beating a dead horse, so I'm done posting on this one... I just wanted to reply since your post talked about "karma prevailing" and "selling water after a hurricane," and I wanted to make certain that [at least my] intentions were coming across the right way. I hope that next Friday brings a little more clarity to the situation for all of us.