Deferred "Planned Ob$olescence" disguised as an "Obsolescence Obsolete" ?

[Jean Bernard]

Deferred "Planned Ob$olescence" disguised as an "Obsolescence Obsolete" ?

I understand RED needs to evolve and try to stay ahead of the curve & its business not personal BUT in a parallel manner... aren't they going against their own "Obsolescence Obsolete" slogan in a way by devaluing their own product? Granted they were the pioneers that allowed us to own cinema camera with the introduction of the RED One but are they shooting themselves in a foot or us for that matter?

Just want to know your thoughts & if RED is actually hurting the camera market with this drastic price cut?

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I think the most hurt is for Scarlet owners, really.

 

[Aaron C Smith]

Why? Because now they have the option to upgrade to an epic for ~10k or so? Seems like what many scarlet users wanted from the beginning from what I recall.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Why? Because now they have the option to upgrade to an epic for ~10k or so? Seems like what many scarlet users wanted from the beginning from what I recall.

word. +1

 

[Mike P.]

Dude, 2012 Scarlet purchasers lost what? $9700 drop to $7950 = $1750; Less if they ordered in 2011... 2012 Epic purchasers dropped from $34,500 to $19k = $15,500!!! As in MORE than the value of the entire Scarlet with mount, SSD module, side handle and 5" Touch, and reader, and batteries, and REDmags... How in the hell did Scarlet users get more screwed than 2012 Epic purchasers? The only way Scarlet users are boned is if there's no cost effective Dragon plan, but even then, assuming you've been working since you got your camera, it shouldn't be too much (it'd have to be less than $15,500, because the camera only cost $9700...)

 

[Scott Crawley]

How does reducing the cost of a tool make it less capable or worse incapable of doing the job?

 

[Elijah Kelley]

Can not see how it compromises anything...upgrade is still on for all DSMC
and as to devaluing the market if the Epic has done this then the RedOne was
first "Devaluer" because the closest you could've gotten to the RedOne was between
5 and 15 times more...so there it is. No one is forced to purchase anything
and RED has not violated any guarantee made to its clients...there is no other
camera company...or large corp that comes close to the self-enforced loyalty
and fairness to its clients. Many thanks to RED.

 

[Elan Gunos]

Wow cool, is this official or conjecture?

Why? Because now they have the option to upgrade to an epic for ~10k or so? Seems like what many scarlet users wanted from the beginning from what I recall.

 

[Elijah Kelley]

All the complaints reveal why the larger camera companies were able to gouge
the little guy for so long. This is the same mentality...
"Low enough for me to afford but high enough to be just out of reach
for the guy next to me" that way the big company mentality spreads like a cancer.
Especially with all the "I didn't get a chance to make more money" which sounds
like "We didn't make enough profit for our bonuses"...

"Envy comes in many forms."
Me

 

[Aaron C Smith]

It's official in the sense that with the Value of a used epic being 15k or so, and the value of a used scarlet being 5k or so, a 10k upgrade path is now feasible whether officially endorsed by red or not.. Simple math, I guess? I dunno, this subject really needs to die and people need to move on. The only reason why people don't really have a right to be upset is the simple fact of life that "things can always be worse" - people dying of starvation, people losing their homes and loved ones due to hurricanes, wars, losing a limb - it all makes losing thousands of dollars of hard earned money over night seem fairly insignificant.

 

[Elan Gunos]

So your idea of an upgrade is to sell it to a third party, and use that money and pay the difference—got it. With all due respect, the world will always be at unrest naturally, politically, economically, etc.—and this is after all a forum to discuss these matters, where else can people discuss this? If you would like to talk about the state of the world, I suggest going to another forum.

It's official in the sense that with the Value of a used epic being 15k or so, and the value of a used scarlet being 5k or so, a 10k upgrade path is now feasible whether officially endorsed by red or not.. Simple math, I guess? I dunno, this subject really needs to die and people need to move on. The only reason why people don't really have a right to be upset is the simple fact of life that "things can always be worse" - people dying of starvation, people losing their homes and loved ones due to hurricanes, wars, losing a limb - it all makes losing thousands of dollars of hard earned money over night seem fairly insignificant.

 

[Aaron C Smith]

Calm down Elan, I was merely trying to make a point. Guess I failed to make it, to you, at least. It's something I was thinking about yesterday that kinda snapped me out of my fairly depressed state.

 

[Elan Gunos]

I am actually pretty calm, I think. I think you're projecting or seeing something in these comments which can probably lead to a terrible misunderstanding. Truth be told, I just wanted to know if it was official or not...not a huge deal, and not the end of the world. I am perfectly happy with my Scarlet and Epic.

Calm down Elan, I was merely trying to make a point. Guess I failed to make it, to you, at least. It's something I was thinking about yesterday that kinda snapped me out of my fairly depressed state.

 

[Aaron C Smith]

I guess it was the "with all due respect" and "go to another forum". But, it's all good, we're just reading letters on a screen *virtual handshake*

 

[sergio arguello]

How does reducing the cost of a tool make it less capable or worse incapable of doing the job?

I'm not sure you are making the complete business model connection,cameras are a tangible asset so the fact that it's devalued is irregardless of your point. As an example, Sony dropped the similar bomb on the poor saps that bought F65 by putting out a smaller
Almost as capable F55 for a fraction of the cost. Devaluation is just that...it just feels odd to a lot of people because RED was winning
the war with technology and not price mark-downs ie.... target,Safeway,wallmart business models. I can safely say that if the savings
Been applied to meisler box and we all could put this beasts on our cameras it would be a loooong time till Japan,and Germany caught-up
So to say that the camera still does what it is meant to do is rather bland and miopic response.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I can safely say that if the savings
Been applied to meisler box and we all could put this beasts on our cameras it would be a loooong time till Japan,and Germany caught-up
So to say that the camera still does what it is meant to do is rather bland and miopic response.

Yeah. I still cannot fathom why RED did not include allocating some of the cost reduction to the Meizler module as part of its recent strategic move. It'd have really leveled the field for many people vis-a-vis Alexa. Oh well. Maybe RED has something else up the sleeve in regard to the Alexa and post workflow questions. Wait and see.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'm not sure you are making the complete business model connection,cameras are a tangible asset so the fact that it's devalued is irregardless of your point. As an example, Sony dropped the similar bomb on the poor saps that bought F65 by putting out a smaller
Almost as capable F55 for a fraction of the cost. Devaluation is just that...it just feels odd to a lot of people because RED was winning
the war with technology and not price mark-downs ie.... target,Safeway,wallmart business models. I can safely say that if the savings
Been applied to meisler box and we all could put this beasts on our cameras it would be a loooong time till Japan,and Germany caught-up
So to say that the camera still does what it is meant to do is rather bland and miopic response.

It wasn't meant to be an all encompassing argument to be sure but the point is valid. The fact that the market value has diminished does not make the camera less valuable. Sure it may take a little longer to recover the investment because rates may need to be adjusted or further investment is required. But that is where the Red credit comes in handy.

I agree that the best use if the credit would be to apply it toward a Meizler module or Dragon upgrade. Doing that should allow owners to maintain their rates while competing more directly with other systems such as Alexa. That's a good move. So if fair market value on the camera has dropped by $15,000 (which actually costs you nothing, because it is only a perceived loss until you sell the asset) and you instead invest that sum to keep the camera current, then you lose nothing.

If we were talking about a Sony or other camera system it would cost the price of an entirely new camera to stay current, but with the Epic... Even with this year's rapid depreciation you can stay current for $15,000.

If you initially paid $38,000 for Epic and add the $15,000 Meizler Module to the cost, the Epic has cost you $53,000 over two years and your camera is still on the cutting edge. That is a much lower cost of ownership than any other system that I'm aware of. Even with Meizler AND Dragon Epic still cost less thn Alexa would have. An Alexa base package costs what, $80,000? EDIT: I realize an Epic kit requires a few accessories to be comparable, but I believe the cost is still less. We're talking about what here, a viewfinder... $61,000 total for Epic, Bomb, Meizler and Dragon?

To summarize; because of Epic's relatively low initial cost and high value it is easy to absorb this kind of adjustment. Add to that the value of the upgradeable modular design and you are way ahead of the game.

The question at hand was

aren't they going against their own "Obsolescence Obsolete" slogan in a way by devaluing their own product?

Pointing out the fact that depreciation does not make technology obsolete is not a miopic response IMO. I think it is an important thing to remember and it is something too often forgotten these days.

 

[Arnold F.]

Used Scarlets are available for $5K?

I've never bought anything, including camera gear, that loses value as fast a RED camera. I bought one last year and now it's worth half. I've only had it for 8 months.

Although that is definitely fast, a colleague bought an Epic and lost half the value in 3 months. Well, overnight, really.

Now I'm finding out the used Scarlet I still have on order from RED themselves went down in value about 35% BEFORE it arrives.

This used to bother me but I take consolation in RED's incredibly consistent investment performance and don't think of them has having value in the same way other gear (or, for that matter, any-thing) does.

It's official in the sense that with the Value of a used epic being 15k or so, and the value of a used scarlet being 5k or so, a 10k upgrade path is now feasible whether officially endorsed by red or not.. Simple math, I guess? I dunno, this subject really needs to die and people need to move on. The only reason why people don't really have a right to be upset is the simple fact of life that "things can always be worse" - people dying of starvation, people losing their homes and loved ones due to hurricanes, wars, losing a limb - it all makes losing thousands of dollars of hard earned money over night seem fairly insignificant.

 

[Delvon Teco]

Used Scarlets are available for $5K?

Now I'm finding out the used Scarlet I still have on order from RED themselves went down in value about 35% BEFORE it arrives.

Why don't you cancel your up-coming BT Scarlet then...? Get a used one...

 

[adam r]

Why don't you cancel your up-coming BT Scarlet then...? Get a used one...

I am sure many people will be happy to take the BT Scarlet off your hands before delivery. I emailed Red but you had already bought my camera :banghead: