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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Deciding to the pull the trigger

E

Elizabeth Mason

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I've spent quite a bit of time perusing the forum, and the sheer volume of information has made my head spin. I apologize in advance if this has already been asked and answered a dozen times.

I'm currently a Canon shooter (1DC with a few 5Ds), but not satisfied with the Canon options as a second camera. I've been considering Red for a long time, and the Raven has definitely made that more interesting. But this is my question:

Is there something (other than the sensor) that I should consider when deciding between a used Scarlet-X package, and a Raven?

I don't shoot sports, or anything that I feel needs a unique set of camera requirements. I feel like either camera would work for me, and I could save some cash going the used route, but is the definitive answer to this question the dragon sensor?

Thanks!
 
It's a little apple and oranges, but only a bit. The newer camera will fit in the RED ecosystem longer, possibly with an upgrade path. A used Scarlet is a fine camera too, and if you are simply looking for a great camera and it covers everything you need, nothing bad about that choice either. Not really a clear-cut decision since they're a bit different from each other. Either way you'll be fine, but compare specs and see what is most important to you, make a list.

All equipment is going to drop in value the moment you buy it, it's the way of technology these days. If it were me, I'd go with the Raven.
 
Elizabeth Mason said:
I've spent quite a bit of time perusing the forum, and the sheer volume of information has made my head spin. I apologize in advance if this has already been asked and answered a dozen times.

I'm currently a Canon shooter (1DC with a few 5Ds), but not satisfied with the Canon options as a second camera. I've been considering Red for a long time, and the Raven has definitely made that more interesting. But this is my question:

Is there something (other than the sensor) that I should consider when deciding between a used Scarlet-X package, and a Raven?

I don't shoot sports, or anything that I feel needs a unique set of camera requirements. I feel like either camera would work for me, and I could save some cash going the used route, but is the definitive answer to this question the dragon sensor?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Elizabeth,

Welcome to RU. If you don't shoot sports the MX is perfectly acceptable. I'm a huge fan of the Scarlet MX. It got me started. As i've grown i've always had one philosophy when it comes to shooting and purchasing equipment. I only take a little bit of a risk. I make sure I can cover my costs and maybe only extend myself a little bit if I think it's worth it. So in most cases I always recommend others stay with in their budget though.

The things I would think about in terms of what you're shooting is look longer down the road. Do you feel like you'll outgrow a Scarlet quickly? Do you think you'll need to get additional frame rates down the road? In this instance I'd opt for the option that gives me the most tools in the tool box for creative purposes. Sometimes Clients like it if you provide a bit more than they expected.

However the Scarlet MX is a phenomenal camera and I'd still use it today if it was my only option without hesitation.
 
Ive owned a scarlet mx for about 3 years now and it is an amazing camera. Just to put in perspective some of the top hollywood movies shot on the mx sensor, it's a big list. If you are mostly shooting 23.98-30 fps, you get an amazing 4k image and 3k 48 is what I have used to shoot action sports and always happy. Yes, the Raven will be better, but I think once those start shipping you will be looking at around 5k vs 10k for a package.
 
Rochester!! It is good to see someone from the land of Kodak and Xerox, as RIT is my alma mater. I am in San Diego now, but I do miss the fall . . . not the winters though! Ok, I digress.

I have been happily shooting on a Scarlet MX for a few years and never had the need to upgrade. Sure, I desire the higher frame rates and improved exposure latitude of the currently available Scarlet Dragon, and the recently announced, but not yet available Raven, however I certainly will not suffer without. I guess the main thing to consider is how quickly you want to get a camera in your hands, because the Raven won't be coming your way until early 2016, if my guess is accurate. Otherwise, either option is great, in my opinion. Good luck and stay warm this winter!!
 
All the above posts make a ton of sense. The MX is a great sensor. As a 1D shooter, you should definitely explore the sensor sizes. The Raven's is smaller than the Scarlet. If you can afford a Scarlet Dragon that might be the smoothest transition from your current setup.
 
Thanks for the replies. I was leaning toward the Scarlet for a number of reasons, but in reading through the Raven threads, felt like everyone was putting the dragon sensor above all other features. At this point, I don't feel like I would quickly outgrow the Scarlet--I think if I was in that boat, the camera might be the least of my worries. I'm glad to hear that I'm not out of my mind for considering the MX!

ETA: If I could afford the Scarlet Dragon, there would be no question about what to buy!
 
Elizabeth Mason said:
Thanks for the replies. I was leaning toward the Scarlet for a number of reasons, but in reading through the Raven threads, felt like everyone was putting the dragon sensor above all other features. At this point, I don't feel like I would quickly outgrow the Scarlet--I think if I was in that boat, the camera might be the least of my worries. I'm glad to hear that I'm not out of my mind for considering the MX!

ETA: If I could afford the Scarlet Dragon, there would be no question about what to buy!
Click to expand...


go for the raven. you wont be disapointed
 
First of all, Elizabeth, welcome to Reduser.

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say Raven. You get a Mini-Mag SSD so you don't have to decide whether to go that route or the older SSDs. You get the newer Dragon sensor with better color and dynamic range, gorgeous highlight rolloff, and 3 more stops of dynamic range. You get much higher frame rates and better compression. (Correct me guys if I'm wrong on the compression). You get a smaller/lighter form factor. You're already used to EF-Mount. I don't know if you are familiar with Red's upgrade program but we are pretty sure Raven will have one since all other Reds have had one. You will likely get more for your trade in down the road (if you decide to) with Raven than with Scarlet MX. You have the option to use the older monitors or the newer ones that are cable-less with multiple mounting points.

If it were me, I'd hold out and go Raven.
 
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If you shoot with DSLRs go with the Raven. I've never felt I can have the freedom I need with my Epic as I have with my DSLRs. With my Epic I NEED at least an assistant. Depends on what your ideal situation is. I go from totally guerilla style with my DSLRs to proper studio work and then I use my Epic. I think Raven will feel more like a DSLR.
 
Hey Elizabeth

I think you'll find the DSLR to Red move pretty cool, you'll have to think about your data and post path more though. I'd say an important thing to get your head around is all the extra modules each brain needs. A second hand scarlet package should hopefully get you most things but will it be weapon compatible mini-mags or older mags? There's a chance that some of your gear, like rigs and tripods that you already own for your DSLRs, wont work with the Red (except Lenses obviously) so you may be up for extra costs.

Also look at how much media you can afford for each option and how you'll power the camera. Media is very expensive and will add to your dilemma and you'll be surprised at the amounts of data you'll start to generate. On the power side, Redvolts are great for a lighter camera but changing them after what feels like minutes is a pain and I have eight but that's so often not enough for a days shoot.

I found it really hard to weigh up an Epic MX or a Scarlet Dragon a year ago but with the body changes I think the decision is even harder now. Even though the Scarlet Dragon hadn't started to ship (sound familiar,) all the advice said go Dragon over MX but I went MX for the frame rates and the chance of an upgrade down the track which I was lucky enough to get. But for me, it was always a possibility as I knew I had the potential for heaps of work if I invested in a camera. If that's the same for you then a camera that you can make money on now is great. Who knows, pay it off and move onto Weapon. My experience has been that the investment in Red has totally paid off (although instead of quickly paying off the camera I've been buying all this extra gear for it 'caus I'm an idiot.)

Finally, the MX is a sensor that could shoot a feature film and work at the highest levels of our field so while it's a difficult choice, either way you'll end up with a tool that's a step up for your career and is only limited by your own efforts. However, if I was in your shoes I'd be thinking about if I'm okay with the MX sensor being not upgradeable and a fair few years old now. I'm not sure if there's an upgrade path for Raven but getting on board that train is pretty awesome for your future. I'd be also mindful of the best all round package for the budget and taking into account media, power and any extra costs like new hand-held rigs or tripods. Raven's fixed mount is also an issue but if you make more money of using your own canon glass instead of hiring sexy cinema glass for your PL mounted Scarlet then that's more money to pay of the camera of buy into the next step.

If there was a way to scrimp and save I'd say you wont regret a Scarlet Dragon but the one thing I'd totally recommend is to hire a Scarlet MX for a day and play. I think you really need to see the images yourself to make this call. When my MX arrived and everyone on reduser was talking about Dragon, I was so excited by looking at the camera in my hands. Having said that, I totally freaked out the weekend my Dragon came back.

Hope that's not too much info. I was in a similar position last year and I've got so much out of reduser that I hope I can return the favour that many on these boards have done for me.

No matter what you pick, it's going to be cool.

Rich

PS totally hire that scarlet, it'll help you understand all the bits these cameras need.
 
There is no question the Dragon sensor is the better choice overall. If, the sensor is S35 sized. My concern is the larger crop factor on the Raven. I could be wrong, however us owners of the older tech can take solace. As a recent example, fellow REDUSER Chris Coronado shot this little ditty with a Scarlet MX. Just about to crack 35 million views btw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31tiWX-8bdc

I might be biased, (cuz I own a Scarlet MX) but this looks pretty good to me.
 
Have you considered Scarlet Dragon? Maybe its also a good choice if you're on a budget. All DSMC 1 accessories apply and old media, and many users are selling them for the Weapon upgrade. I'm an Epic Dragon owner and sincerely the difference between MX and Dragon is colossal. Go Dragon all the way, may it be Weapon Raven or Scarlet Dragon.
 
Scot Yount said:
There is no question the Dragon sensor is the better choice overall. If, the sensor is S35 sized. My concern is the larger crop factor on the Raven. I could be wrong, however us owners of the older tech can take solace. As a recent example, fellow REDUSER Chris Coronado shot this little ditty with a Scarlet MX. Just about to crack 35 million views btw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31tiWX-8bdc

I might be biased, (cuz I own a Scarlet MX) but this looks pretty good to me.
Click to expand...
That does look great. So far I love the dragon. But I still prefer the look of the MX better. In fact my current plan is to pick up a raven, sell my Epic Dragon and get a used Epic MX on the cheap after they get even cheaper used.
 
For canon shooters I'd say go raven for auto black shades
 
Elizabeth, there is nothing...NOTHING...I miss about the MX sensor versus Dragon (even when it comes to low-light performance compared to the STH OLPF - I like Dragon's texture, you may not). For the most part, the more challenging and funkier the lighting environment, the more Dragon will deliver over MX.

I think Dragon's image is more refined and organic looking - compared to MX and, to varying degrees, every other sensor anywhere near Raven's price point (we don't know about the URSA Mini 4.6K yet). Those things are more important to me than being able to see in the dark or some of the other things people go on about.

Having said that, every so often I would re-evaluate my camera options to see if there was something else out there that surpassed Scarlet MX's overall performance and look, at a lower price point.

MX, like every sensor, has its issues. But, for the types of projects I was looking to shoot, Scarlet MX consistently edged out newer options for one reason or another. That is, until Scarlet Dragon came along.

Raven's smaller sensor, compared to the 1DC and 5D full frame sensors, will probably take a little getting used to. Your decision may also depend on how long you'll be looking to stay in the RED ecosystem.

Scarlet MX remains a strong choice, but one that's ultimately stuck in time as far as upgrades go. It is what it is (unless RED unexpectedly offers another upgrade to Dragon). Of course, this is no different a situation than any other manufacturer's camera offerings.

Raven is next generation, with all the new accessories, 3rd party extensibility and upgrade benefits that brings, but for a higher price. If you'll make your money back relatively easily no matter which one you get and you can wait, seriously consider buying Raven. If you can't afford Raven, don't buy it.

If a camera from another manufacturer suits your needs better, buy that one.
 
Thanks for all the replies! It has definitely helped me think beyond the specs, which is what I was looking for, especially being new to Red. I think I will hold off on the Raven, but rent a Scarlet in the meantime to get a full picture!
 
buy the MX - you can get one fully loaded these days for the price of the RAVEN body. to maximize the RAVEN will still require additional investment beyond the package price.

rent a RAVEN if you need overcranked footage, (unless that is the core of what you shoot) - this market will be so stuffed with RAVENs in a short time that you will have people begging you to rent their cameras....

try to get your seller to throw in a Rocket and a card reader.

you'll be able to shoot this camera for many years to come - if you are successful at monetizing it, you'll probably be able to leapfrog RAVEN - and by that time, used EPICs and WEAPONs will be substantially cheaper!
 
Elizabeth Mason said:
I've spent quite a bit of time perusing the forum, and the sheer volume of information has made my head spin. I apologize in advance if this has already been asked and answered a dozen times.

I'm currently a Canon shooter (1DC with a few 5Ds), but not satisfied with the Canon options as a second camera. I've been considering Red for a long time, and the Raven has definitely made that more interesting. But this is my question:

Is there something (other than the sensor) that I should consider when deciding between a used Scarlet-X package, and a Raven?

I don't shoot sports, or anything that I feel needs a unique set of camera requirements. I feel like either camera would work for me, and I could save some cash going the used route, but is the definitive answer to this question the dragon sensor?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

The best way to reduce risk in a business buy decision is to pay as little as possible. The Raven represents RED technology at the cheapest price ever and in the foreseeable future. Not much room to go lower in price so you are safe since you can buy it, use it for a year and throw it away and still be ahead of those who paid top of market prices a year ago. It's a great time to buy RED and the Raven is, without doubt, the value leader in the RED line.
 
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