DEC 10 LENS SHOOTOUT

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

Was just wondering since I read a bunch of negative comments on RU about Canon L glass on RED cameras so was curious if anyone has actually tested them against a Cine field and posted the result. I believe Ryan is confusing "Baseline" with "Reference Standard". Baseline to me would be a common lens that everyone can afford and one that is (going to be) in common use on Epic/Scarlet. The Zeiss UP or MP are something maybe .01% of RED nation owns and would be a good Reference Standard. You guys had an Epic/Canon mount to use the Leica R's so why not just throw a Canon lens on that puppy to show what a blue collar lens looks like compared to the elite rental lenses?

Next time you boyz get together for a test like this I'll offer my Epic/Canon and my complete set of L prime glass for the test. There's nothing in the test videos that makes me think that the tested lenses produce a whole different class of image than the Canon's and therefore not worthy of consideration.

I think you should set up your own similar test and post the results here. It wont be identical, but it could show 90% of the same details and let us see things like sharpness wfo vs 5.6, breathing /work mechanics, consistantly lens to lens, etc. I would definately appreciate seeing it.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I think you should set up your own similar test and post the results here. It wont be identical, but it could show 90% of the same details and let us see things like sharpness wfo vs 5.6, breathing /work mechanics, consistantly lens to lens, etc. I would definately appreciate seeing it.

+1.

 

[Andreas Mendritzki]

Just wanted to say thanks to Ryan and the gang. Very useful tests!

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I believe Ryan is confusing "Baseline" with "Reference Standard". Baseline to me would be a common lens that everyone can afford and one that is (going to be) in common use on Epic/Scarlet. The Zeiss UP or MP are something maybe .01% of RED nation owns and would be a good Reference Standard.

Po-tate-o / Po-tot-o. But your point is well taken.

I would suggest, that "what everyone can afford", and what is in "common use" is never going to be agreed upon. Are you talking what is in common use now? There are over 1,500 Epic-M's out there, and a lot of them are working on big budget feature who are using UP's, MP's, S4's ... so that would seem to suggest that we should have gone that route, as those are the most "common" lens sets. Are you talking about what most people will use on the Scarlet? (Epic and Scarlet are at two vastly different budget ranges IMO.) At what budget level are you talking about? Are you talking most affordable on the ultra low budget indie production that might end up using Zeiss ZF's, Canon L, or Nikon glass? Are you talking the mid range budget levels that can afford the glass we tested? Are you talking features that have budgets around the $500,000 - $1MM range that usually can also afford to rent S4's etc.? Are you talking about owner operators? If so, what budget level range for them? Are you talking about purely rental budgets?

In my experience, it is never that cut and dry, or that simple. There is always a lot to consider, and there is never going to be one answer. So far since October I have shot with the Epic + Cooke, RPP's, Angenieux, & Zeiss, all of which were chosen for a combination of budget, look, & availability.

You guys had an Epic/Canon mount to use the Leica R's so why not just throw a Canon lens on that puppy to show what a blue collar lens looks like compared to the elite rental lenses?

As has been previously said- it is easy to say that, but harder to do in practice. We did not even have time to get through all the lenses on every test, so adding in more lenses would not have been possible. Especially when everyone is donating their time, gear, etc. I am amazed that we were able to pull of what we did in the time we had- the stars really aligned to make this event a reality. And I am VERY grateful to EVERYONE that made it a reality.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Yep.

That's one of three attributes which I immediately told me set one was Panchro/i's. The 5-set (25-100) is likely one of the most color matched sets I've ever used, however, the 18mm is noticeably warmer. I discovered this by my own Cooke lens test you can find here , if interested. I over-layered the focal lengths onto one image, and you can see it there too. Right-Click and download here. However moderately inconvenient that can sometimes be, it's a pretty sharp and rather distortion free 18mm. So dispite being a color match fanatic, I tend to take the good with the bad on that one. It's a beautiful lens, and I compensate in camera for the color difference since I have well documented it in my tests. I'm excited to see the R3D's and see how the other 18mm's compared, and to see if my stated opinion proves true.

THANK YOU! This is extremely helpful. I had REALLY wanted to get the S4's there as I have been wondering this very thing. Unfortunately, all of the S4's are on a long term rental and were not available for this test. (I had wanted to get them there to see how well the Panchro's matched.) Thanks again for sharing your results!

 

[Zeb B]

My question remains: does anyone know of a posted test that compares the Canon primes on Epic with a range of elite PL lenses? If not, would anyone who is qualified and experienced in Epic and testing be interested in conducting one in January in San Diego. I will provide my Epic/Canon Primes, Zeiss MP or UP and Leica R rentals, a large studio space, lighting, charts, green screen, props, food and drink. For a comprehensive test it seems we would need (more Epics and operators plus) RPP, Zeiss CP, Cooke 4, 5 or Panchro's and any other cine lens of general interest and use. We can do a side test of Scarlet vs Epic at the same time perhaps.

Seems like there is a need to understand the 900lb ape in the room named Canon Lens since that seems to be current direction of RED lens mount development efforts. I for one would like to know what I am missing with all the PL cine len$ chatter and if Canon lenses really do suck. I'll bet there are a couple Scarlet owners that share this intellectual curiosity. If you are interested, qualified and have equipment to go with then let's do this.

Cheers!

 

[Jeffrey T. Morgan]

Josh, you have my emotional support and enthusiasm! If my Scarlet lands and I am feeling spunky I could come down, but I am guessing you will want only Epic?

Either way, make it happen! I bet someone would help get the Nikon G lenses to you, since that is the 900 lb apes little bro. I am (currently) planning on a few Zeiss ZE lenses with my scarlet for shoots when I can't rent PL primes.

Start a new thread, Josh! go go go! (its easy to be enthusiastic when someone else is doing all the work!)

 

[Zeb B]

Done: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ns-Test-Canon-vs-PL-Elite&p=904070#post904070

 

[Zeb B]

Po-tate-o / Po-tot-o. But your point is well taken.

I would suggest, that "what everyone can afford", and what is in "common use" is never going to be agreed upon. Are you talking what is in common use now? There are over 1,500 Epic-M's out there, and a lot of them are working on big budget feature who are using UP's, MP's, S4's ... so that would seem to suggest that we should have gone that route, as those are the most "common" lens sets. Are you talking about what most people will use on the Scarlet? (Epic and Scarlet are at two vastly different budget ranges IMO.) At what budget level are you talking about? Are you talking most affordable on the ultra low budget indie production that might end up using Zeiss ZF's, Canon L, or Nikon glass? Are you talking the mid range budget levels that can afford the glass we tested? Are you talking features that have budgets around the $500,000 - $1MM range that usually can also afford to rent S4's etc.? Are you talking about owner operators? If so, what budget level range for them? Are you talking about purely rental budgets?

In my experience, it is never that cut and dry, or that simple. There is always a lot to consider, and there is never going to be one answer. So far since October I have shot with the Epic + Cooke, RPP's, Angenieux, & Zeiss, all of which were chosen for a combination of budget, look, & availability.



As has been previously said- it is easy to say that, but harder to do in practice. We did not even have time to get through all the lenses on every test, so adding in more lenses would not have been possible. Especially when everyone is donating their time, gear, etc. I am amazed that we were able to pull of what we did in the time we had- the stars really aligned to make this event a reality. And I am VERY grateful to EVERYONE that made it a reality.

You and your testing posse come on down to Diego in January . . . my Canon's might suck but our weather doesn't!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ns-Test-Canon-vs-PL-Elite&p=904070#post904070

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

THANK YOU! This is extremely helpful. I had REALLY wanted to get the S4's there as I have been wondering this very thing. Unfortunately, all of the S4's are on a long term rental and were not available for this test. (I had wanted to get them there to see how well the Panchro's matched.) Thanks again for sharing your results!

They match so well it's stupid. I recommend downloading the 16-bit tifs and loading a Panchro/i and S4/i image into a basic player, like Preview, and toggle back and forth quickly between the two. That's the only way to see the S4/i and Panchro/i differences I describe! It's quite something. However that is not true when discussing the Panchro/i's when compared to the S4-CXX 15-40mm zoom ... that is another story. As cool as a T/2 Cooke S4 15-40 zoom can be.... is not the best lens. It has some perspective distortion issues, much more CA, and is considerably warmer. Makes the 18mm Panchro/i look cool.

The CXX just can't match the S4/i or Panchro/i quality because it's a wide zoom... wide zooms are not easy to design and make. Cooke just couldn't get it to the level of their primes, which is a high bar.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Did we (this thread) ever discuss why the 18mm Illumina had some considerable edge sharpness issues, even at T/4? I expected some considerable issues wide open, as we see in other sets like Zeiss SuperSpeeds, but I did not expect to see any optical effects to that degree when stopped down three stops. Is this typical? Do you think this particular 18mm has an misaligned element in the housing? I'd send that 18mm to a lens doctor and make sure the lens is in proper condition.

Station 2 is much better to watch, now that I know which lens is what. Surprised at lots of things. The Leica's, despite being usually very susceptible to contrast reduction from bright objects in frame, did very well supressing the contrast reduction from the flare test. This was shocking, since many people, including the DSLR advocate, Shane Hulbert, have said the Leica R's are especially vulnerable to flares. These flared nicely. So maybe it's easy and nice? I expected easy flares with something along the lines of uncontrollable spilling and contrast contamination across the image. Seems that is not the case in the flare test, however, I did see contamination plenty on the close up at station one, where the newspaper zone 8-9 bleeds across the girls head.

BTW, how did you guys hold the ND filters in front of the lenses at station 3? Funny enough, I thought I had seen a reflection from a filter... were you guys holding them to the lens? Or was it the case of a missing doughnut Anywhich way, I thought it was funny because I think I could see the hand of the AC.

 

[D Fuller]

I have to say this is the most useful and interesting lens test I've seen since Evin Grant & Company die the SALT tests. Thank you so much for doing it. I think we've all learned a lot from this effort.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Did we (this thread) ever discuss why the 18mm Illumina had some considerable edge sharpness issues, even at T/4? I expected some considerable issues wide open, as we see in other sets like Zeiss SuperSpeeds, but I did not expect to see any optical effects to that degree when stopped down three stops. Is this typical? Do you think this particular 18mm has an misaligned element in the housing? I'd send that 18mm to a lens doctor and make sure the lens is in proper condition.

Nope, not discussed in this thread- but yes, it is very surprising- especially for a lens set at this price range. Judging from all of the other lens sets, I would say this is not typical in this price range, and we only had one set on us, so I have no clue if it is limited to just this lens, or if it is part of the design. It is the kind of thing I would expect from a much older lens ...

BTW, how did you guys hold the ND filters in front of the lenses at station 3? Funny enough, I thought I had seen a reflection from a filter... were you guys holding them to the lens? Or was it the case of a missing doughnut Anywhich way, I thought it was funny because I think I could see the hand of the AC.

Shawn will have to chime in here with specifics, however, I know he had his O-Box on him, so I suspect that it was used. I know that donuts were not with the lenses, and I doubt Shawn had any on him. Yes you did see a reflection from the filter, the still I pulled for that setup has as much of the reflection minimized as possible - it is still there, and it is only for one setup, but it is there.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

You and your testing posse come on down to Diego in January . . . my Canon's might suck but our weather doesn't!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ns-Test-Canon-vs-PL-Elite&p=904070#post904070

LOL! Your weather is a LOT better then up here for sure! Sounds like fun. I hope it all goes well- would love to be there.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

They match so well it's stupid. I recommend downloading the 16-bit tifs and loading a Panchro/i and S4/i image into a basic player, like Preview, and toggle back and forth quickly between the two. That's the only way to see the S4/i and Panchro/i differences I describe! It's quite something. However that is not true when discussing the Panchro/i's when compared to the S4-CXX 15-40mm zoom ... that is another story. As cool as a T/2 Cooke S4 15-40 zoom can be.... is not the best lens. It has some perspective distortion issues, much more CA, and is considerably warmer. Makes the 18mm Panchro/i look cool.

The CXX just can't match the S4/i or Panchro/i quality because it's a wide zoom... wide zooms are not easy to design and make. Cooke just couldn't get it to the level of their primes, which is a high bar.

Will do! Thanks again for making that available.

BTW- +1 on your signature request for Red to unlock the i/technology!

 

[Shawn Nelson]

BTW, how did you guys hold the ND filters in front of the lenses at station 3? Funny enough, I thought I had seen a reflection from a filter... were you guys holding them to the lens? Or was it the case of a missing doughnut Anywhich way, I thought it was funny because I think I could see the hand of the AC.

N
Shawn will have to chime in here with specifics, however, I know he had his O-Box on him, so I suspect that it was used. I know that donuts were not with the lenses, and I doubt Shawn had any on him. Yes you did see a reflection from the filter, the still I pulled for that setup has as much of the reflection minimized as possible - it is still there, and it is only for one setup, but it is there.

I used my Obox (special thank you to Oconnor for overnight priority sending it to me just so we could have it on hand). And yes, I did use a donut religiously the whole time. However, I was only responsible for 6 out of 7 setups on the roof, the 7th setup was the Leica-Rs and Im guessing that's where you saw a reflection. That was not my camera or MB and I dont recall seeing a donut on that setup.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

I used my Obox (special thank you to Oconnor for overnight priority sending it to me just so we could have it on hand). And yes, I did use a donut religiously the whole time. However, I was only responsible for 6 out of 7 setups on the roof, the 7th setup was the Leica-Rs and Im guessing that's where you saw a reflection. That was not my camera or MB and I dont recall seeing a donut on that setup.

Hahaha, yeah. It was Leica R's. No worries. Didn't effect me. I thought it was funny. I like easter eggs.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Ryan.....I love your Company Logo.

Great work!

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I used my Obox (special thank you to Oconnor for overnight priority sending it to me just so we could have it on hand). And yes, I did use a donut religiously the whole time. However, I was only responsible for 6 out of 7 setups on the roof, the 7th setup was the Leica-Rs and Im guessing that's where you saw a reflection. That was not my camera or MB and I dont recall seeing a donut on that setup.

My mistake- I didn't see any donuts with the lenses, and wasn't aware that you got any with you O-box. What did you get and how are you liking them?

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

Ryan.....I love your Company Logo.

Great work!

Thanks- that is my family's coat of arms. (Slightly modified- the actual one has one stallion in the center, not two.)