DaVinci

[Andrae Palmer]

I think it's safe to say that Apple ironed out many of the problematic issues with FinalTouch... Mostly stability and syncing with FCP. This "support" argument to me is another vestige of the Heavy Iron mindset.

Regarding what Tim stated about if Davinci Resolve flops... My answer to that is so what... It's only $995. You can definitely make ROI back with one job... with more jobs you can purchase the control panel. Light Iron that's where the future is at... Michael Cioni pcked a great name for his new company.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

I like to going to Home Depot. The reason? It gives me some sense of empowerment. If my house roof caved in after an oak toppled over, would I call a professional? Absolutely? If a home project is small and within my time/ability to repair, I'm definitely going for it.

Technology has become the chief equalizer in ALL MARKET SPACES. We can't get mad at certain niches because that cause and change is happening. Guys are building their own workstations, raids, you name it. Stuff that easily 10 years ago was offlimits. If pieces and parts are available, people are going to dive in.

Obviously, all this increases the burden on obvious and hidden costs of acquisition and deployment to the average John Doe, while all the while keeping an eagle eye on razor thin margins.

I applaud another tool in the race, but clearly will be moderating my expectation of what our shop can achieve with it and the limits of the product given access to our talent pool/budgets.

 

[jimhare]

I think it would be great to have it in the studio and bring in talented colorists when needed. I would much rather give them $1500 a day to come to me than pay $400 an hour to sit in a facility.

I understand the differences between a realtime system, but by rendering at night and during breaks, I'm sure a good DaVinci artist would do well in this environment.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I think it's safe to say that Apple ironed out many of the problematic issues with FinalTouch... Mostly stability and syncing with FCP. This "support" argument to me is another vestige of the Heavy Iron mindset.

You sound a bit like an angry young man on a crusade. Why is support only something for people with a heavy iron mindset?

I love support. With all companies that I bought tools from except Apple I can talk to the developers, be it Autodesk, Iridas or even Adobe.

Why is this bad? It's not only about fixing problems in a short time frame, even instant programming is possible, but also to influence the product's development. That makes my projects quicker to finish and safes valuable time.

I heartily pay for that.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I understand the differences between a realtime system, but by rendering at night and during breaks, I'm sure a good DaVinci artist would do well in this environment.

The point about RT grading is not about saving render times for final output but about keeping a fast pace in the actual grading process for artistic reasons.

Adjusting, rendering, play back, stop changing settings, etc... makes the workflow dramatically bumpy. Grading should be done in a smooth, fast pace. At least that is what colorist want the system to do.

Hans

 

[MichaelHalsell]

The point about RT grading is not about saving render times for final output but about keeping a fast pace in the actual grading process for artistic reasons.

Adjusting, rendering, play back, stop changing settings, etc... makes the workflow dramatically bumpy. Grading should be done in a smooth, fast pace. At least that is what colorist want the system to do.

Hans

I agree totally on the need for playback. Playback is crucial for color judgement during primary color moves. Secondary color adjustment can be a bit more forgiving due to the fact that usually this stage requires that filters, masks, trackers be added. So it's only reasonable that some rendering need would exist.

But for primary color adjustment, playback is crucial, doesn't need to be frame accurate, but playback is important.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

The high selling point of Apple Color, other than price, is ability to work with the editorial timeline (ie Final Cut). A good attempt was made to make this work. DaVinci would really need to shine in this area, whether that be Final Cut, Avid, Vegas or Premiere. Shoveling formats around, although necessary at this time, clearly eats in profit margins.

If this feature is gracefully executed and stable, this workflow could be a winner.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

You sound a bit like an angry young man on a crusade.

"Angry" could not at all describe my emotions this week, "elated"... is exactly how I'm feeling. Davinci Resolve on Mac OSX for $995.... Wow! A full 4k color grading system for 50k... wow! The issue regarding support is a non issue... if you want a level of support comparable to working on a Pablo, Baselight, Scratch, Smoke... then you should purchase a level of software/annual service plan that comes with such support... simple.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I just want to see what I can or cannot do for $1k on a Mac.


The main obvious advantage of this BMD move is getting great creative tools into hands of more artists. I don't agree with the standpoint that this doesn't have a price, though.

Any sudden major change in any environment, which is post environment in this case, creates a disturbance. One of which will be in market saturation/over saturation. In an over-saturated market it will be more difficult for a client to find a good and reliable artist. This is all transitional phase and will pass with time.

We already had to save other folks asses with their screwed Red support and other with screwed post services. We didn't get paid for full service because it wasn't perceived as such, and the clients had to go through all the fuss. While I'm very happy for other artists and "colorists" having great tools, this didn't help the client or us in the end. Yes, the quality shows in the end, but the market priority is not the quality but cost and "I don't know what this is but I'm buying this gear because it's sexy" trend is nothing new.

Also, the thing which Mike mentions is "perceived value". Folks will be happy with $1k tool but will have a problem accepting the fees for post, because they will drop substantially. Strictly business speaking, one thing people seem to forget is that after you pay off the $100k tool you are still charging for $100k tool, and after you pay off $1k tool your pricing is based on $1k tool. I'm perfectly fine with the latter.

 

[Shane Betts]

The price of staying in business differs based on a number of factors, and none of them have anything to do with being nice to the community or "democratization."

You need to actually meet Grant Petty. You'd be surprised at just how altruistic he actually is. Yeah, of course he's in it for a buck but he was a freelance broadcast tech for years and many of his best friends are or were freelancers. His basic reason for setting up Digital Voodoo at first and then BMD was to empower freelance creatives to get paid for their talent and experience instead of for the gear they own. I've seen him go through brochures from big post houses, looking at the Avid and Sony and Quantel and Autodesk logos and saying "All they're selling is someone else's reputation. They don't even mention the operator who makes the job".

I've always felt that he and Jim Jannard are very alike. They might be raking in the cash but they do actually care.

I see your point about rates coming down with the price of gear but, as has been said by others here, I believe that's mostly affecting the "Don't look at my work, look at the brands" operators. Talent will out.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

"Angry" could not at all describe my emotions this week, "elated"... is exactly how I'm feeling. Davinci Resolve on Mac OSX for $995.... Wow! A full 4k color grading system for 50k... wow!

Andrae I can feel you! Had the same feelings 3 years ago when I heard about the RedOne project. I loved the idea of substituting my trusty old S16mm SR with a digital 35mm bypassing HDCAM for budgetary reasons. Working with the lenses I love, not only when the budget is available, no costly stock, no restrictions in this regard... Wow!

Affordable grading is just not that revolutionary for me. I bought FinalTouch HD for 5K, then SpeedGrade 15k... never looked back. Before that I had to telecine my projects with an Ursa/DaVinci, later Spirit/Pogel always relying on the skills of someone else. I love the possibility to do things myself or not. It's all about choices. And that is what BM gives.

Hans

 

[mikeburton]

I guess what surprises me here is that there are a lot of folks that truly are excited about a professional tool becoming affordable but what they will soon realize is
the support gear that tool needs to run in a professional environment (an environment paying clients are used to working in) is a much greater cost than just the software alone.

Let's say you for example you already own a kick ass brand new Nahelem MacPro. Here's a short list of other tools you will need if you expect to do real color work for clients.
- 10 Bit Monitoring Options - Dreamcolor, Cinemage, ECinema, Panasonic 12 Series,
- Support Contract - (Must have IMO).
- Cinespace or Truelight
- Projection - Barco, Christie, Sony, NEC
- Projection Screen
- SAN or RAID 1000MB's or higher
- Control Surface
- LTO Backup
Other options include - DCP Creation Hardware / Software, 3D Color Wheel for Projection (if going that route) and a whole crapton of cabling. Not to mention a space large enough to store and vent your projection seperate from the grading room plus a server room
to house the computers, RAID/SAN etc etc.
There's a lot more. IMO, clients are paying to work with a talented artist in a facility that exudes confidence. Your bedroom or home office with a single copy of DaVinci does not sing like a facility catered to the environment professionals are used to working in. Is it exciting times, yes. Will this effect the post facilities that have the kind of infastructure I mention above? I truly don't think so. It will just bring more attention to this aspect of the business one which often doesn't receive enough credit. I think people will still pay for service and quality.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Mike I think you are wrong... coloring won't be just for high end clients anymore. Lots of people will pay a low end colorist say $1000 to color their sub 50k movie. They won't care if the coloring happens in the bedroom, bathroom or living room. Luckily I'll be one step ahead... just got a studio warehouse in January... lol. Most of the things you mentioned just won't matter... we are entering into another dimension.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Coloring has already stopped being only a high end thing. Now it's following a natural path of creating gradations, levels of service.

 

[M Most]

Mike, I now you mean this in good faith. But to be honest, every time you try to tell us folks that we aren't talented enough to use the big iron stuff, you just remind me of when I was a kid trying to get my animation laid off to VHS and some moron with an Amiga and a Video Toaster won't let me use their system.

I've never said that. What I have said is that very few people have high professional level abilities in multiple disciplines. In other words, a good picture editor usually isn't also a great colorist, a great colorist is usually not a great sound editor, and it would be extremely rare for a great sound editor to also be a great 3D modeler, animator, or VFX compositor. All of these things require a lot of experience and specific skills to do well at a high level. I'm not saying it's impossible for one person to be equally talented in all of these things. I'm saying it's extremely, extremely rare. And it has nothing to do with "big" vs. "little" iron.

 

[M Most]

Light Iron that's where the future is at... Michael Cioni pcked a great name for his new company.

Nothing against Michael or his company, but that name would be a bit more meaningful if his primary tools weren't things like Pablos.

 

[mikeburton]

Mike I think you are wrong... coloring won't be just for high end clients anymore. Lots of people will pay a low end colorist say $1000 to color their sub 50k movie. They won't care if the coloring happens in the bedroom, bathroom or living room. Luckily I'll be one step ahead... just got a studio warehouse in January... lol. Most of the things you mentioned just won't matter... we are entering into another dimension.

My point was not where you set up shop, but there are certain tools that you need to have in coloring that require quite a bit more $$ than I think the enthusiast understands to make a picture hold up against the subsequent chains of distribution formats that follow down the pipe.
Andrae, can you honestly tell me that you would charge a client to do color correction on their film without being PROPERLY calibrated with correct LUT's for a specific destination? Or you think it's acceptable to use an 8 bit monitor over a 10 bit? How could you offer that client any kind of piece of mind? If your clients don't care that their final product will not represent correctly anywhere else from what they timed in your suite than so be it but I've never come across that client yet. No doubt things are changing and they are changing fast but just cause a particular tool drops to an affordable cost point for anyone to own doesn't mean anyone will be able to support it or savoy clients for that matter. And, if you truly feel Your clients aren't going to be picky and care about any/all these things we've been discussing I can honestly say you are wrong and in for a rude awakening.
BTW - This is by no means an attack just my observations working as a colorist in northern California. Regardless, if we agree or not I say my peice respectfully of course.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

With democratization of tool sets, is the industry moving from specialist to generalist?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Andrae, can you honestly tell me that you would charge a client to do color correction on their film without being PROPERLY calibrated with correct LUT's for a specific destination? Or you think it's acceptable to use an 8 bit monitor over a 10 bit? How could you offer that client any kind of piece of mind? If your clients don't care that their final product will not represent correctly anywhere else from what they timed in your suite than so be it but I've never come across that client yet.

I personally wouldn't... but just yesterday I was talking to a guy that will be using my cameras for a feature. I enquired who will be the colorist and he mentioned some guy that he paid $1000 on the last feature. This guy colored a feature on Apple Color with just a basic Mac workstation... that's it. True story... just yesterday. So yes you will have many "colorist" doing it without LUTs, without calibrated monitors of any sort all on 8 bit Apple LCD's... if that. These features will go straight to home made DVD's (distribution via Toast one disc at a time) ... or no where at all. Everyone nowadays is talented and a movie director. My guess is that most of these works will be submitted to the new booming industry of local film festivals.

 

[Alex Hastings]

I guess what surprises me here is that there are a lot of folks that truly are excited about a professional tool becoming affordable but what they will soon realize is
the support gear that tool needs to run in a professional environment (an environment paying clients are used to working in) is a much greater cost than just the software alone.

Let's say you for example you already own a kick ass brand new Nahelem MacPro. Here's a short list of other tools you will need if you expect to do real color work for clients.
- 10 Bit Monitoring Options - Dreamcolor, Cinemage, ECinema, Panasonic 12 Series,
- Support Contract - (Must have IMO).
- Cinespace or Truelight
- Projection - Barco, Christie, Sony, NEC
- Projection Screen
- SAN or RAID 1000MB's or higher
- Control Surface
- LTO Backup
Other options include - DCP Creation Hardware / Software, 3D Color Wheel for Projection (if going that route) and a whole crapton of cabling. Not to mention a space large enough to store and vent your projection seperate from the grading room plus a server room
to house the computers, RAID/SAN etc etc.
There's a lot more. IMO, clients are paying to work with a talented artist in a facility that exudes confidence. Your bedroom or home office with a single copy of DaVinci does not sing like a facility catered to the environment professionals are used to working in. Is it exciting times, yes. Will this effect the post facilities that have the kind of infastructure I mention above? I truly don't think so. It will just bring more attention to this aspect of the business one which often doesn't receive enough credit. I think people will still pay for service and quality.

I totally agree, but the freelance and rouge artist is what is going to change the industry. There used to be a time when facility's where owned by large conglomerate media enterprises, since they where the only ones that could afford the gear. Gradually slowly its been dissolving, and now more and more you see the new model which is artists run shops. They know how to use the gear and how to make pretty pictures, and they don't need an MBA to secure the lease and build a business plan to operate the company. Since the overhead is so much lower, the liability is so much lower. You could build a film level post station and pay it off doing wedding video, (you still have to be good at wedding videos). The gear list you mentioned, I would consider the low end, bare minimum, but any guy with a good demo reel and few decent contacts/clients could buy that gear at Silverado or another retailer and put the big shop down the road out of business. I think the point being that all of that gear is not hidden in Autodesk/Discreet engineer’s basement, you can buy any pro gear now at a decent retailer.

Anyone sitting on an expensive piece of gear, SMOKE, PABLO, LUSTRE, should be sweating, it doesn’t matter how many clients you have now. Once that pro colorist who was in your shop decides to open his own facility and takes his credit card and walks into a B&H, your in trouble. Being able to buy 10 DaVinci's for the price of one Baselight, that's not a game changer, thats pretty much game changed. Someone in a LUSTRE color session is not going to leave you during a color session after hearing about NAB, but the money game has started, and its all about dollars and cents eventually. Every movie, every TV show, will try to figure out a way to cut costs at some point.

I assisted on was DaVinci Renaissance 888 in the 90’s, I would read the binders/manuals at night before I went to bed. I felt like I was an astronaut taking my first ride on the space shuttle. It was cool. It was a secret society. Clients had money, sometimes. People got paid, people where happy. I don't remember but I think the system was close to 1million, since they never told me exactly what it cost, granted that was $1million in 1990, so you have to do the conversion. It took 15 years, but hopefully now if someone walked into Silverado put 40k on the table, made a studio rate of ~2k to 3k a day, they could take away work from LUSTRE, PABLO, artists. That is scary, since there are a ton more people ten times more talented than me thinking the exact same thing. Those are the guys who are going to take the food from your mouth.