DaVinci Resolve V7.0 Supports Rocket

[Frank Cueto]

Oh, I totally agree. From what I saw, Resolve has a lot of work before them, even after a major V7 rewrite. They had totally missed the boat by clinging to an outdated hardware architecture and design philosophy. They ended up in a situation, that Kodak had found itself a few years back. DaVinci was a leader in color grading, but they were afraid of killing their golden goose-2K. That's why they came up with crazy products, like Splice, just to prolong the shelf life of 2K. Meanwhile competitors, unburdened by those considerations pushed on and left DaVinci for dead. DaVinci finally changed the direction and were one of the first to fully embrace the power of GPU, but it was too late and company died. So, yes, right now, operationally Resolve is not quite up to par with Baselight or FilmMaster. But Resolve has great foundation, company is listening to prospective users, they have financial means to sustain and implement necessary improvements and did I mention the price? I'm optimistic on Resolve outlook and willing to give them a second look.

So Jake, basically DaVinci was a hardware company, doing color correction hardware to be precise. They decide (more like forced) to move into software, late might we add. They lost some key people/assets, had maybe a wrong vision of what RESOLVE should be and how it should be it, and therefore the software version of their hardware Cash-cow 2K was lack luster. After that - sales fell thru the floor, and the company got sold (twice I believe).

So what we now have is a software, that was not very well received, for whatever reason, that is now going thru a major rewrite by the people who I don't know who they are, which brings up two questions:

1) its the same team that was at DaVinci, so they have the "genes" but are the ones responsible for the previous versions. That wouldn't inspire me a ton of confidence.

2) Its a NEW team. That's GREAT, new blood, maybe some new creative ideas. BUT, that means that the only thing that traces back to DaVinci is the name.

This drives to the core of my understanding of why its going to be successful. Its going to be successful at first because of price and brand recognition but that doesn't make it a good system. But thats ok, it doesn't have to be great, it only needs to be "Good Enough" and I guess that's what IRKS me...

 

[Brian Petrie]

Its going to be successful at first because of price and brand recognition but that doesn't make it a good system. But thats ok, it doesn't have to be great, it only needs to be "Good Enough" and I guess that's what IRKS me...

I think at this time it will be an interesting product to say the least. The thing I am wondering about is what the future can bring. So let's say that they create some great software with this rewrite but Mac Pros still lack processing power yo compete on par with the higher end options. However, in lets say 4-5 years what will the Mac Pros be cabable of? If Apple really gets their sh*% togerher and creates some kicka%% Mac Pros in a few years and DaVinci is able to fully utilize them. Well then that's when the higher ends may start to be affected. However, by then, I'm sure many other companies will either create lower priced options to compete or make their higher end systems so much more capable that it's still worth the price. I guess only time will tell, I just don't see Resolve affecting the higher end facilities too much, at least not immediately.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Resolve for Mac will be successful because it's shaping up to be by far the most cost effective system that meets the core requirements of a particular market. In particular, as far as I know, it's the first system under about $50K that provides:

1) A full set of grading tools (secondaries, tracking, etc.)
2) Real-time 1080p/2K playback performance.
3) Native real-time R3D support.

Does it do real-time 4K output? No. Does it do real-time 2K 3D output? No. Do those things matter to day-to-day, down in-the-trenches indie production as it's practiced in 2010?

No.

And by the time they do matter... well, GPU performance is climbing at an alarming rate. Real-time 2K has gone from needing a rack full of half a million bucks worth of custom hardware to needing a $500 graphics card in just a few years. Project that out another five years....

 

[Frank Cueto]

Chris, I believe Iridas Speedgrade and Scratch have been less than $50K for a whille.

Or not?

 

[Chris Kenny]

Chris, I believe Iridas Speedgrade and Scratch have been less than $50K for a whille.

Or not?

Maybe a bit under $50K, but that's really stretching it, with hardware included. Certainly not going to get SpeedGrade DI that cheap. And I don't think it has Rocket support, does it?

Meanwhile, the Mac version of Resolve is going to come in probably around $15-20K for a plausible system with a Red Rocket and a Tangent Wave. And most of the gear you'd have to buy, a lot of potential customers already own much of. If you've already got a recent-model Mac Pro, a Rocket, a Wave and a respectable RAID, you can pretty much jump into Resolve for under $3000 (depending on your GPU option).

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Maybe a bit under $50K, but that's really stretching it, with hardware included. Certainly not going to get SpeedGrade DI that cheap. And I don't think it has Rocket support, does it?

For RED workflow, Rocket Fuel *turnkey* is less than US$15.

That includes a workstation with more slots than a Mac Pro, an NVidia SDI card for realtime output to any SMPTE formate, and a RED Rocket card in a full x16 slots for realtime 4K full-rez decode and output.

A full SCRATCH FINISH license is more than that.

But... Rocket Fuel has been available for awhile now for US$11K, and turnkey packages - with computer, monitor,etc - have been available from our resellers worldwide for less than US$15K for seversl months now.

(...Sorry - I know this is a DaVinci thread - but I will correct inaccuracies.
I now return you to your previously scheduled thread...)

Lucas

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
Currently jet-lagged in Beijing

 

[jake blackstone]

So Jake, basically DaVinci was a hardware company, doing color correction hardware to be precise. They decide (more like forced) to move into software, late might we add. They lost some key people/assets, had maybe a wrong vision of what RESOLVE should be and how it should be it, and therefore the software version of their hardware Cash-cow 2K was lack luster. After that - sales fell thru the floor, and the company got sold (twice I believe).

So what we now have is a software, that was not very well received, for whatever reason, that is now going thru a major rewrite by the people who I don't know who they are, which brings up two questions:

1) its the same team that was at DaVinci, so they have the "genes" but are the ones responsible for the previous versions. That wouldn't inspire me a ton of confidence.

2) Its a NEW team. That's GREAT, new blood, maybe some new creative ideas. BUT, that means that the only thing that traces back to DaVinci is the name.

This drives to the core of my understanding of why its going to be successful. Its going to be successful at first because of price and brand recognition but that doesn't make it a good system. But thats ok, it doesn't have to be great, it only needs to be "Good Enough" and I guess that's what IRKS me...

It's much closer to number 2. Majority of engineering had been moved out of Florida. A lot of new blood had been brought in. A major rewrite and port of software had been accomplished in very short period. You of all people should know how long it took for Filmlight to incorporate GPU into Baselight. It's not a trivial matter even for a company with well established engineering track record. Resolve finally had been put on a solid foundation and now they are moving in the right direction. Support for Rocket on a Mac and dual Rocket on linux is a good example. Baselight too isn't everyone's cup of tea. I could point to few of shortcomings, that Filmlight could improve. Once Resolve comes out, just give it a second look and keep an open mind.

 

[Chris Kenny]

For RED workflow, Rocket Fuel *turnkey* is less than US$15.

That includes a workstation with more slots than a Mac Pro, an NVidia SDI card for realtime output to any SMPTE formate, and a RED Rocket card in a full x16 slots for realtime 4K full-rez decode and output.

But only one-light grading. First item on my list was "A full set of grading tools (secondaries, tracking, etc.)".

People have pretty much literally begged you guys over the last couple of years to release a version of Scratch with a full set of grading tools (perhaps restricted to working only with Red footage) for $5K or less for the software. Now Blackmagic seems poised to do it (and without any artificial format restrictions) for $1000. And on the Mac, which is a nice bonus for shops that are mostly Mac-based, and allows easy integration with ProRes workflows, etc.

I understand Scratch has some conform/workflow tools Resolve hasn't got, but it doesn't solve any problems on that front that I've been banging my head against a wall for a couple of years desperately wishing someone would solve. Resolve, with real-time 1080p/2K playback and a full set of grading tools at a price that fits our market, on the other hand, seems like it will result in a noticeable reduction in the amount of wall/head contact that I experience on a regular basis. It really feels like we're finally getting that one last piece of the puzzle.

If you guys want to get down in the trenches and fight it out with Blackmagic, you'd be more than welcome, I think. You might consider doing a low-cost product that focuses more on grading and cuts workflow conveniences that are mostly necessary only in very high-volume environments or when doing things like laying dailies out to tape. (Most indie features we talk to lately seem more interested in iPad dailies than HDCAM dailies. Heh.)

But this is all just my perspective as someone who's been trying to solve the puzzle of cost-effective Red workflow for the last couple of years. Maybe you guys don't see the market the same way. That's fine; there's room for various approaches.

 

[OlaHaldor]

DaVinci comes as a blessing to my prayers. I know I'm fresh in this game, but I feel I need something to grow on. Learn something new, learn DaVinci. It's a natural choice, mostly due to the price point. I do mostly indie movies, music videos and commercials. The Mac approach to this client base is just perfect!

And the most demanding clients has repeatedly asked "can you play that?" Honestly, I feel embarrassed when I have to say "sorry, Color doesn't do that". In new facilities next door to a theatre (literally!) I'm going to have a blast hitting the play button and watch the clients drool when they see their movie on the big screen during a session.

It's about having fun along the road, right? Doesn't matter if it comes cheap, when it actually works. And for the big guys in the business, why do you even care to rant about this? Spend your money like you want to and let the rest of us that don't have this magic tree in our yard that grows green paper with dead presidents printed on it have a blast while we pretend to work on the next blockbuster.


If the others had similar offers like a software only deal with some fancy deal of using affordable hardware, I'd probably have a hard time deciding what route to go. Unfortunately for you, DaVinci wins my heart hands down, body sealed in a coffin and shipped to the moon and back.

 

[Bruce Allen]

+1 to the above posts. Seriously. This is doing to grading what RED did to cameras.

RED gave us what we'd been begging the status quo manufacturers for at an amazing price... and people threw money at them in joy. A lot of people are going to do the same with DaVinci.

Scratch may be a fantastic value relative to other packages like Lustre... but I can't afford a Scratch. And the $15,000 turnkey Scrach with no secondaries is a non-starter since I personally am not a huge fan of default Red color.

Going out of house for coloring sucks because either they either charge insane prices or they are cheap but have no eye.

That's why all of those hodgepodge DIY combinations of Color / After Effects / RedCine / Magic Bullet Looks / Colorista started springing up, despite the conform, performance and workflow hassles. We don't do this for fun - we do it because the status quo SUUUCKS.

Anyway, finally now we get a real app we can actually afford. It is awesome.

There is a problem and DaVinci solved it. Hope they are richly rewarded for believing in us.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[M Most]

What does "most visible" mean?

It means that it is the segment that represents the projects that get the most attention, are the most familiar to people both in and out of the industry, and are the most heavily used in advertising and PR. If you look at any ads for any of these devices, they almost always refer to high end projects that have used that particular device. You don't see a lot of Avid ads talking about independent web distributed projects. You do see a lot of them talking about major motion pictures and television shows. Like it or not, that small market segment in terms of volume represents a disproportionately large amount of PR value. That fact even makes its presence known here on RedUser. How many pages are devoted to "Amazing! Great! Incredible!" responses to a simple post that states that so-and-so motion picture or television program was even partially shot on Red? Or even that a non-working prototype - in effect an empty box - was used as a prop on a well known cable television program?

THAT's what I meant.

 

[Paul Nordin]

How many pages are devoted to "Amazing! Great! Incredible!" responses to a simple post that states that so-and-so motion picture or television program was even partially shot on Red? Or even that a non-working prototype - in effect an empty box - was used as a prop on a well known cable television program?

THAT's what I meant.

LOL. Excellent point!!!

 

[Paul Leeming]

If they REALLY want to blow the doors off, they'll support the Windows/PC environment as well, especially given that it's 90%+ of the world's computers and has superior hardware!

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Chris Kenny]

It means that it is the segment that represents the projects that get the most attention, are the most familiar to people both in and out of the industry, and are the most heavily used in advertising and PR.

My point is just that this is all a bit silly in the context of this thread. The people on this forum are, I think, mostly working professionals, not industry spectators. They don't get excited about tools like Red and Mac Dissolve because of how they imagine such tools will change things for that tiny fraction of high-end productions. They get excited because of how they see such tools changing things for them, with the projects they work on.

 

[Peter Chamberlain]

Actually, we have quite a few customers looking at MacPro/Resolve with Rocket for on set use... and many are feature film majors. We're not ruling out any customer or market segment and some of the new features we will announce at IBC are specifically requested by the guys who use Resolve on those $100M films - they will work on the Mac too!
Peter

 

[Shane Betts]

If they REALLY want to blow the doors off, they'll support the Windows/PC environment as well, especially given that it's 90%+ of the world's computers and has superior hardware!

That's a very good point Paul. Not sure why they haven't done it. BMD do a lot of Windows stuff - a lot. I can only assume the port from Linux to Windows is more problematic than Linux to Mac. Maybe it's on their roadmap. Peter?

BTW, what was the budget on Avatar?

 

[jake blackstone]

Peter.
Just wondering. Is it possible to incorporate an eSata controller for the external eSata Raid enclosure on the Decklink card? Physical ports could be routed to the soon to be available slot next to FX 4000. It's a single width GPU card. Decklink, I believe, can work even on a single lane, so there is some bandwidth still available for eSata.

 

[Steve Das]

...BMD do a lot of Windows stuff - a lot.
I can only assume the port from Linux to Windows
is more problematic than Linux to Mac. Maybe it's on their roadmap. Peter?

BTW, what was the budget on Avatar?

Peter spoke of the Windows port on a previous thread..click
his name and you can view all his previous posts..
and yes it is more problematic..so not anytime soon

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46931&page=8

While I would never say never, we like Linux due to the control, power and expandability it provides, and MacOS has many similar attributes. Adding a Windows OS would be significantly more work than our port to Mac OS and I think there are plenty of other things for us to do before we even look at Windows so I would not expect it any time soon.

As for Avatar budget...Box Office Mojo website says..

Production Budget: N/A
Worldwide Gross as of Aug.12: $2,740,405,721

 

[M Most]

...The people on this forum are, I think, mostly working professionals, not industry spectators. They don't get excited about tools like Red and Mac Dissolve because of how Hthey imagine such tools will change things for that tiny fraction of high-end productions. They get excited because of how they see such tools changing things for them, with the projects they work on.

Judging by many of the posts here, they get excited because they want to use the same tools that were used in the making of Avatar. They want to use the same system that Stefan Sonnenfeld uses. They likely only know the DaVinci name because of such things, hence proving my point.

But we can agree to disagree on this because in the end it really doesn't matter.

 

[Kaku Ito]

I had a little thought about how people might be choosing to shoot with RED because 4K RAW can be graded in realtime with DaVinci and a RED ROCKET. Am I optimistic?

I just had a hell of time conforming proxy edited FCP timeline to Apple Color (because it was shot with build 20 cam and trying to grade with FLUT science environment that requires the older proxies to be regenerated). So can I dream and look forward to the environment without such issues? .