How does the workflow compare with Cineform's? I experimented with their trial version running on PremierePro. It de-Bayers the footage to preview quality in realtime when playing and decompresses to full quality when playing stops - revealing the full-quality image for that frame. Corrections and FX processing (similar capabilites to what is being proposed by Red) can be viewed at full resolution on the parked frame. To see everything in full-quality, one hits the render key and comes back afterward. Is this the Red workflow for "off-line" to "on-line" or does it differ?
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Data rates and storage options
- Thread starter Phil Becque
- Start date
MikeCurtis
HDforindies.com
Some thoughts -
1.) All this worry and concern about 4K output/workflow/grading...very, VERY few projects are mastered at 4K - I think a lot of folks here may be worrying too much about it.
2.) There are only two ways to output a 4K file so that folks can watch it - either filmout or DCI Spec digital cinema masters (forget the exact term, but 4K digital projection masters to work with the DCI spec servers and projectors...and only then if you have a 4K projector, a very expensive piece of gear)
3.) 4K is really, REALLY hard to work with in realtime - most 4K grades are done at 1K or 2K proxy, and final rendering done non-realtime. And again - how are you going to monitor that signal at that res, let alone in realtime?
4.) If you wanted to, you could in theory do compressed HD or 2K using something like Color Finesse or Colorista in Final Cut, then use Automatic Duck to get it into After Effects for a high quality 4K render pipeline and maintain all the quality of the source 10 bit log or lin or 12 bit lin source
5.) As I've stated before, I'm betting the vast majority of stuff shot on Reds will get mastered to HD - and it'll look GREAT. 4K RAW (even compressed) downsampled to 2K or HD is going to look very clean and smooth. And even a feature, if shot 4K Redcode RAW, downconverted to whatever for offline mastering, then color corrected in 10 bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 1920x1080 or 2048x1080 will look really, really good (if well done, of course). And the nice thing about it? There are already good tools out there to get good results for mastering 10 bit 4:2:2 out there with off the shelf hardware/software that is relatively easy to use and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But with extra work and software and time, you can even do 10 bit 4:4:4 pipelines (or even 2K/4K 10 bit log or 12 bit lin pipelines) on desktop class computers, lots of storage and a decent amount of render time.
The focus should be on good results, at the budget level you can afford, in the time you have. For INDIES, the quality difference to be gained between a 10 bit 4:2:2 HD master and a 12 bit 4:4:4 2K or 4K master is, in the end, up on the theatrical screen or high def Blu-ray/HD-DVD master, not so huge as compared to the effort/resources/skills/time required. Time/effort perhaps better spent on the cut, the FX, the marketing/promotion?
All that said, I'm personally dedicated to finding the best way to master all this stuff. Actually, finding the best solutions for mastering this stuff at various quality and price points, starting with SD and ending at 4K mastering off of Red originated footage, all at various points on the price/speed continuum.
...and (pardon the brief shill) I'll be making that info available to my clients. I want to be the Go To Guy on all this stuff.
-mike
1.) All this worry and concern about 4K output/workflow/grading...very, VERY few projects are mastered at 4K - I think a lot of folks here may be worrying too much about it.
2.) There are only two ways to output a 4K file so that folks can watch it - either filmout or DCI Spec digital cinema masters (forget the exact term, but 4K digital projection masters to work with the DCI spec servers and projectors...and only then if you have a 4K projector, a very expensive piece of gear)
3.) 4K is really, REALLY hard to work with in realtime - most 4K grades are done at 1K or 2K proxy, and final rendering done non-realtime. And again - how are you going to monitor that signal at that res, let alone in realtime?
4.) If you wanted to, you could in theory do compressed HD or 2K using something like Color Finesse or Colorista in Final Cut, then use Automatic Duck to get it into After Effects for a high quality 4K render pipeline and maintain all the quality of the source 10 bit log or lin or 12 bit lin source
5.) As I've stated before, I'm betting the vast majority of stuff shot on Reds will get mastered to HD - and it'll look GREAT. 4K RAW (even compressed) downsampled to 2K or HD is going to look very clean and smooth. And even a feature, if shot 4K Redcode RAW, downconverted to whatever for offline mastering, then color corrected in 10 bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 1920x1080 or 2048x1080 will look really, really good (if well done, of course). And the nice thing about it? There are already good tools out there to get good results for mastering 10 bit 4:2:2 out there with off the shelf hardware/software that is relatively easy to use and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But with extra work and software and time, you can even do 10 bit 4:4:4 pipelines (or even 2K/4K 10 bit log or 12 bit lin pipelines) on desktop class computers, lots of storage and a decent amount of render time.
The focus should be on good results, at the budget level you can afford, in the time you have. For INDIES, the quality difference to be gained between a 10 bit 4:2:2 HD master and a 12 bit 4:4:4 2K or 4K master is, in the end, up on the theatrical screen or high def Blu-ray/HD-DVD master, not so huge as compared to the effort/resources/skills/time required. Time/effort perhaps better spent on the cut, the FX, the marketing/promotion?
All that said, I'm personally dedicated to finding the best way to master all this stuff. Actually, finding the best solutions for mastering this stuff at various quality and price points, starting with SD and ending at 4K mastering off of Red originated footage, all at various points on the price/speed continuum.
...and (pardon the brief shill) I'll be making that info available to my clients. I want to be the Go To Guy on all this stuff.
-mike
Steve Freebairn
Well-known member
Great Post Mike.
My question is much more reasonable. (I'm not planning on editing 4k for a while
If I am targeting a 1080P master, and I output from Redcine to 480P or something else really simple to edit, What is the process of getting it onlined back at 1080P. Can I import an EDL into RedCine or do I need to manually get the clips that I used the first time and export them?
It would be really nice to be able to load up an EDL from any of the major applications Final Cut, Avid, Premier Pro and then just select the new output format of choice.
My question is much more reasonable. (I'm not planning on editing 4k for a while
If I am targeting a 1080P master, and I output from Redcine to 480P or something else really simple to edit, What is the process of getting it onlined back at 1080P. Can I import an EDL into RedCine or do I need to manually get the clips that I used the first time and export them?
It would be really nice to be able to load up an EDL from any of the major applications Final Cut, Avid, Premier Pro and then just select the new output format of choice.
Chris Kenny
Well-known member
Great Post Mike.
My question is much more reasonable. (I'm not planning on editing 4k for a while
If I am targeting a 1080P master, and I output from Redcine to 480P or something else really simple to edit, What is the process of getting it onlined back at 1080P. Can I import an EDL into RedCine or do I need to manually get the clips that I used the first time and export them?
It would be really nice to be able to load up an EDL from any of the major applications Final Cut, Avid, Premier Pro and then just select the new output format of choice.
REDCINE won't actually do your conform, but it will, apparently, be able to load an EDL and automatically export just the clips you need for your final conform in whatever format you want.
Michael Schrengohst
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I notice on your website, available for consulting. So will you be available for consulting re: RED - Capture, edit,delivery? And are you getting a RED yourself?
Thanks
Bmoreshaun
Well-known member
4k offline and then some...
4k offline and then some...
I just put my reservations down for 2 red ones and the 300mm primes(more lenses to be rented)...I'm planning on shooting a feature(keeping but not being able to view my 4k master) by doing a(I've never done before) 2k(or lesser) offline edit in final cut(can you do 2k in final cut?)...Thus being able to have the ability to have my project blown up on film(or projected on the Sony) and still be able to send my usual trailers,etc quickly...My major questions are..."Keeping Cheap" in mind....
1: How much (terrabytes) storage will I need for say 15hrs using the redcode raw format(small sequences doing 60fps in RAW)(will have to have storage for both 2k and 4k files?,I'm sure...Could I go lesser format for an offline edit and have no problems going back to my 4k master... I was thinking of useing the red raid (on site) then download (on site) onto a raid system I can have built(would my mac book pro cut it for (on site) transfer, or would I lug the mac pro?)
2: What is the best monitor for editing(and feild)(keeping in mind wanting to blow back up to film)
3:I need to get an editing system(useing g-5 now
...I'm looking at the mac pro(dual 3.0), say 8gigs of ramm ) and a Kona card....Again can final cut make the cut for 2k edit,& 4k master?...if not,how should I go?...
4: besides file storage(on site and editing), editing system, proper monitors, etc... is there anything else I'm forgeting?(certian softwear for getting any of these into final cut/shake/logic,etc....?), anything else I might not have thought of...Co$t wise...(on site and off)...besides normal production costs
4k offline and then some...
I just put my reservations down for 2 red ones and the 300mm primes(more lenses to be rented)...I'm planning on shooting a feature(keeping but not being able to view my 4k master) by doing a(I've never done before) 2k(or lesser) offline edit in final cut(can you do 2k in final cut?)...Thus being able to have the ability to have my project blown up on film(or projected on the Sony) and still be able to send my usual trailers,etc quickly...My major questions are..."Keeping Cheap" in mind....
1: How much (terrabytes) storage will I need for say 15hrs using the redcode raw format(small sequences doing 60fps in RAW)(will have to have storage for both 2k and 4k files?,I'm sure...Could I go lesser format for an offline edit and have no problems going back to my 4k master... I was thinking of useing the red raid (on site) then download (on site) onto a raid system I can have built(would my mac book pro cut it for (on site) transfer, or would I lug the mac pro?)
2: What is the best monitor for editing(and feild)(keeping in mind wanting to blow back up to film)
3:I need to get an editing system(useing g-5 now
...I'm looking at the mac pro(dual 3.0), say 8gigs of ramm ) and a Kona card....Again can final cut make the cut for 2k edit,& 4k master?...if not,how should I go?...4: besides file storage(on site and editing), editing system, proper monitors, etc... is there anything else I'm forgeting?(certian softwear for getting any of these into final cut/shake/logic,etc....?), anything else I might not have thought of...Co$t wise...(on site and off)...besides normal production costs
Rob Lohman
Red Team
It's all a bit premature to talk about this. Storage rates for RED-RAID have not yet been given and monitoring & editing hardware increase in features and drop in prices almost monthly.
As I have advised others: wait with purchase of computer gear, monitoring solutions etc. until at least after NAB. There will be 1000+ people getting their camera's before you. Use that time to see and learn which workflows and equipment work best for them. Then buy what you need and can afford.
To walk buy your questions:
1) unknown yet, however, onboard REDCODE RAW (4K at 30 fps should be around 30 MB/s). RED-RAID will have much larger data rate than REDCODE RAW though!
2) see my points above
3) see my points above, also new products / software releases tend to be announced at NAB (April in Las Vegas), so wait what gets released there
4) backup for archival? And if you do the full processing I guess you want to start looking into Blu-ray & HD DVD mastering for HD delivery? Unless you solely do TV or film out.
As I have advised others: wait with purchase of computer gear, monitoring solutions etc. until at least after NAB. There will be 1000+ people getting their camera's before you. Use that time to see and learn which workflows and equipment work best for them. Then buy what you need and can afford.
To walk buy your questions:
1) unknown yet, however, onboard REDCODE RAW (4K at 30 fps should be around 30 MB/s). RED-RAID will have much larger data rate than REDCODE RAW though!
2) see my points above
3) see my points above, also new products / software releases tend to be announced at NAB (April in Las Vegas), so wait what gets released there
4) backup for archival? And if you do the full processing I guess you want to start looking into Blu-ray & HD DVD mastering for HD delivery? Unless you solely do TV or film out.
MikeCurtis
HDforindies.com
Red Guy - YES I specifically will be available for consulting on all these Red related issues, and YES I've got a Red reserved for myself (and a zoom) for rental.
-mike
Gregory Karydis
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