Dark Knight Rises - True 70mm IMAX Projection

[Keegan O'Brien]

I think your right, so the problem is as the film is moved to the 2k dcp. I was reading up on this, trying to figure out why it looked up close like crap. First off I'm perty sure that almost all the decent acting scenes where done with s35, thus the grain looks "normal" in the mid's for that. Because they are avoiding a 2k DI, the VFX doesn't have evenly overlayed grain (so randomly there is no grain in sections of the screen). Finally as the imax film is going through 2k dcp (i.e. jpeg2000), the very small grain of imax film (about 50 minutes the film) is under sampled when it goes through the jpeg2k wavelet (i.e. if it was 4k dcp, maybe that could capture the grain ... but even then due to the bit rate not allowed to be higher in 4k vs 2k ... i doubt the imax grain would come through decently without huge wavelet errors).

Over all though, mixing imax with s35 and vfx without a major rethink using 4k DI, makes the grain a Frankenstein mess as the movie is seen via a 2k dcp.

Ah, you saw it digitally? I was under the impression you had seen it on 15/70mm. Anyway, yeah, there's a huge difference in grain structure between 35mm and 65mm IMAX. IMAX is obviously much... clearer. As for VFX, I'm not perfectly clear on their process, but it's not a conventional one. I wish I could find that article that explains their VFX process, but it's a very traditional approach. Perhaps someone else could explain better than myself.

 

[Jason Rudd]

For shots shot on 65mm film neg that require VFX, the negative was scanned at 8K, VFX applied, then filmed out at 8K using 65mm film recorders.

Definitely, everyone should see this at a IMAX FILM theatre, not a digital one! Over one hour of the film was shot on 65mm, and results are pretty stunning when seen at the proper theatre.

I personally saw it at the Rave 18, Howard Hughes center, formerly "the Bridge". Looked great - very obvious compared to the other 35mm anamorphic footage which looked very soft in comparison.

This is probably the LAST movie shot with so much IMAX film footage - film is quickly on its way out everywhere.

Ah, you saw it digitally? I was under the impression you had seen it on 15/70mm. Anyway, yeah, there's a huge difference in grain structure between 35mm and 65mm IMAX. IMAX is obviously much... clearer. As for VFX, I'm not perfectly clear on their process, but it's not a conventional one. I wish I could find that article that explains their VFX process, but it's a very traditional approach. Perhaps someone else could explain better than myself.

 

[L. Langer]

When I saw it in IMAX, the visual quality was all over the place. I don't know why. A lot of the IMAX action footage was also out of focus or focus was on and off for much of the film and some of it towards the end was as sharp as a knife.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Keegan ... I saw it a one of the listed above IMAX theaters, but I really doubt the distributer would send 2.5 hours of actual imax film ... and I have noticed at the IMAX I go to, it often just shows normal 2k dcp with nicer physical seating(it was perty crazy that thursday night ... so i didn't ask). movie was ok ... but not worth my time to go back to the theater and ask/rewatch it.

Jason ... I agree, the whole concept of filming and distributing on imax seems hopeless for the future. IMAX showing at 4k dcp makes a lot more sense to me. From a film nostalgia viewpoint, things like "Moonrise Kingdom" make a lot more sense to me.

L.Langer ... I sometimes noticed the same thing as the grain style changed.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I saw it twice yesterday, once on true 70mm IMAX and then once in a "4k" cinema (Cinetopia Progress Ridge) that was using a 2k DCP. WTF? Is 2k DCP the only thing going out digitally? It felt soft and sometimes muddy.

 

[Keegan O'Brien]

Keegan ... I saw it a one of the listed above IMAX theaters, but I really doubt the distributer would send 2.5 hours of actual imax film ... and I have noticed at the IMAX I go to, it often just shows normal 2k dcp with nicer physical seating(it was perty crazy that thursday night ... so i didn't ask). movie was ok ... but not worth my time to go back to the theater and ask/rewatch it..

I'm not really sure what you just said...

 

[PatrickFaith]

I'm not really sure what you just said...

There is no guarantee that when you go to a IMAX theater, that the actual media is used to project is IMAX film ( which is bulky and heavy). So IMAX FILM isn't normally sent to the theater anymore. Digital IMAX has a overlay 2k format and a newer format. From my eye, it looks like the imax 2k looks almost the same as a 2k dcp, also since it's a overlay 2k format, it has the same spatial sampling issues as 2k dcp(i.e. if the film grain is close to the resolution of 2k, then you get classic sampling errors that look more like digital sensor error then film grain).

 

[Keegan O'Brien]

There is no guarantee that when you go to a IMAX theater, that the actual media is used to project is IMAX film ( which is bulky and heavy). So IMAX FILM isn't normally sent to the theater anymore. Digital IMAX has a overlay 2k format and a newer format. From my eye, it looks like the imax 2k looks almost the same as a 2k dcp, also since it's a overlay 2k format, it has the same spatial sampling issues as 2k dcp(i.e. if the film grain is close to the resolution of 2k, then you get classic sampling errors that look more like digital sensor error then film grain).

You can find out here. http://www.imax.com/corporate/media...find-film-1570-and-digital-theatres-near-you/

 

[PatrickFaith]

You can find out here. http://www.imax.com/corporate/media...find-film-1570-and-digital-theatres-near-you/

I use http://www.lfexaminer.com ... my theater i go to is listed as "dual" mode (can either be film or digital). LFexaminer notates theaters that are dual mode with:

* Indicates that the theater has both IMAX film and IMAX digital projectors. These theaters are capable of showing The Dark Knight Rises (and other films) either on film or digitally, but will probably show DKR on film.

Duel mode is sometimes designated 1570+dig or 1570/div ... I have no idea what the difference between those two are. I think about 25% of the imax are film capable, and of that 25% not all are using film. Of film, there's the 15 perf 70, but also 4 other format's i know of. Most of the IMAX movies I see though I think are uprezed then moved to that composite 2k ... and that's another quality level. I find the whole "IMAX" branding hugely confusing. I think "4k" will be a lot easier brand concept in the future.

 

[Mike Lary]

You can shoot IMAX an email to verify cinemas as well. I did and I was quite disappointed to find out that only two IMAX theaters in Korea project film, neither of which is showing TDKR.

 

[Jason Rudd]

Some IMAX theatres have dual film / digital projectors. They inter-change these with a unique rail system - many of which were put in in anticipation of DKR. For DKR, film is the preferred format, but if there are problems with the print or audio, they have the option of quickly switching over to digital.

IMAX Digital is still basically 2K, but like the rest of the theatrical industry, they are working on 4K as well as laser projection with Barco.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

At the IMAX here in Providence RI it was stunning. The difference between the 65 and 35mm footage was bleedingly obvious -- the 35 does not hold up well on a screen that large.

I saw Prometheus on the same screen and could see the negative space between the pixels, really wish that film had gotten 4K DI.

 

[Keegan O'Brien]

I use http://www.lfexaminer.com ... my theater i go to is listed as "dual" mode (can either be film or digital). LFexaminer notates theaters that are dual mode with:

* Indicates that the theater has both IMAX film and IMAX digital projectors. These theaters are capable of showing The Dark Knight Rises (and other films) either on film or digitally, but will probably show DKR on film.

Duel mode is sometimes designated 1570+dig or 1570/div ... I have no idea what the difference between those two are. I think about 25% of the imax are film capable, and of that 25% not all are using film. Of film, there's the 15 perf 70, but also 4 other format's i know of. Most of the IMAX movies I see though I think are uprezed then moved to that composite 2k ... and that's another quality level. I find the whole "IMAX" branding hugely confusing. I think "4k" will be a lot easier brand concept in the future.

The list I gave you is case specific to The Dark Knight Rises... every theater that could show film, did show film for TDKR. Christopher Nolan made a pretty big deal about it since he shot 72 minutes of the film on 15/65mm. It totaled to roughly a hundred theaters world wide. A large amount of theaters that gave up on film still had their projectors sitting around, and they were used for TDKR. Honestly though, I'm in a bit of shock that you can't tell whether you saw it digitally or on 70mm. The difference between the two is painfully obvious, and hell, the digital presentations literally say "Powered by DLP" before the movie.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

This link includes Canadian theatres - which is where IMAX originated
http://thedarkknightrises.warnerbros.com/imax.html

 

[Matthew Mann]

I saw it in IMAX digital since 70mm projection was sold out weeks in advance. It looked good, but I couldn't tell as much of a difference between the IMAX and 35 footage as I thought I would, aside from aspect ratio and ANA to spherical differences. This surprised me as there's a huge difference on the blu ray of TDK. Now reading that IMAX digital is merely 2k, it makes more sense to me since it was projected onto such a big screen at such a low(er) resolution.

Seeing it in true IMAX Friday, and I can't wait!

 

[Tom Tomlinson]

The August ASC issue goes over the full photochemical workflow.....You have to appreciate the effort made for optimal quality. I am curious though where (what stage?) the 4k DCP is made. According to my guess..it seems the DCP's were made from the color timed IP.
For me, it re-surfaces the film generation loss vs. digital scan debate.

It also seems that certain cities (LA,NY,London named) got imax show prints being for the most part only 1 generation from the original neg.

I'm not surprised based on what I saw.

 

[Robino_J]

Saw it in IMAX at Universal City walk and it was the most insane experience. I went twice.. I don't really care about the movie itself but it's presentation is so amazing that I had to drag some friends that saw it in a regular theatre to show them the difference. They could not believe it. The 35mm vs 65mm is astonishing, it's like experiencing standard def vs HD for the first time but on a MASSIVE 80FT screen! The depth on wide shots is incredible, the film grain etc, what an experience. If you have not seen it and you have an IMAX nearby don't even think about going to a regular theatre.

Enjoy it while its still there because film is going away and it's sad.