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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Current RED audio SUCKS!

B

bobbystone

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YOu simply cannot plug a mic directly into the RED. The audio is abysmal,. First shot this morning was fine. Second shot totally unusable with a high pitched tone throughout. PLEASE let me have an upgraded audio board soon!

(The pictures were lovely, though!)
 
Curious. Has anyone been able to get production-quality sound out of original audio board using any particular combination of settings, mics, environment?

I remember reading some tips about getting optimal sound but haven't heard whether optimal is actually usable.

-shooter
 
Sure, use a line level and everything works just fine. Yeah, I'm eagerly waiting for the board upgrade, so in the meantime, I'm running any mic into either the SD MM1 or the 442 to the camera.
 
Well, considering a pro audio person would ALWAYS run audio through a mixer first, I think it's kinda odd that people are not using a mixer. You've got a killer image so you should be using a good mixer with quality preamps. Personally, I am using the MixPre (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292988-REG/Sound_Devices_MIXPRE_Mixpre_Portable_2.html) and it's produced great quality. I've also had sound guys with bigger mixers like the 302 and 442 go into the RED with excellent quality. Sure, you may not want to record a 50 million dollar movie onto the RED, but that will probably change (although, there still would be backup audio recorded.)

Line level is really the key. I'm sure that line level will sound even better with the new board, but until then I still can't tell the difference between audio recorded on a DAT and the RED through line level (different microphones make much much more of a difference.)

Matthew
 
I've run a line level signal into an old gen Red audio board and had the high
pitched sound as well, so its not just as simple as avoiding phantom power.
Can't wait for the call.
 
I would say the 744t, cause is a BEAST that fits just right along side a Red...

If all you need is a good pre-amp for a boom and don't mind being tethered to the camera then the MM-1 will give you an excellent pre-amp and the monitoring ability needed... practically zero control over the signal aside from gain though I think it only goes up in steps which is a big issue to consider... a MixPre will go about $650 new I think and it has two channels in and out with proper gain controls.

A solution could be to buy a recorder and sell it once your board comes in... these are solid investments especially if bought used of course:

The 744t will let you record 4 channels of pristine audio, off the camera, which might even help avoid some of the bugs perhaps, not sure about that. It also has the same "arguably best pre-amps out there"... it will sync, record into the internal HDD and CF cards, and DVD-R at the same time if you chose to do so, it will do 24/192 and anything below that. It is more compact than anything out there and you could kill someone with it if you chose to use it as a weapon. lol... you could pick one up for $3,500 used... also a very solid investment.

There is also the 702t which is practically a twin with only two channels. $2,500 new.
 
shooter said:
Curious. Has anyone been able to get production-quality sound out of original audio board using any particular combination of settings, mics, environment.
Click to expand...

I adapted an external phantom power box onto the camera and used a Sennheiser 416 with success. I had to normalize in post but it sounded fine. My camera has since been upgraded to the new audio board and it's terrific. 4 nice, clean channels perfectly fine for dialogue.

With the old audio board you have to supply line level or powered microphone level. A dynamic mic, like a SM58 will work straight into the camera just fine.

I can't comment on the guys with high pitched whines w/o phantom power. I never experienced that.
 
Using a Denecke phantom power box here with a RODE NTG-2 mic. Pretty good results on the old audio board. The NTG-2 is capable of battery power, but the mic level comes in way too low if I do it that way. The single internal AA battery just doesn't have enough juice. Still get better results running through a mixer and pushing line level into the camera with better external controls. I'm really looking forward to the new audio board upgrade.
 
Hadn't thought of a dynamic mic right into the red. How's that powered. Anyone have success with that solution on old board. A mixer is not a reasonable option on small projects lacking sound crew?

-shooter
 
shooter said:
Hadn't thought of a dynamic mic right into the red.
Click to expand...

No power required. They just aren't as sensitive as condensers. I used it for a stand up comedian once. It was staged so we just brought the mic straight into camera and it was fine because the guy was talking straight into the mic at close range. I don't think it would work well in a boom type of situation.
 
I hate to ask this, but I suppose you guys mostly work with audio guys with their own gear right? The Red One is one heluva camera to use without good audio.
 
Shooter,

Another idea. I've used an Audio Technica 897 dual powered shotgun with line level. It has the option of an internal AA battery or phantom power. That might be a possible option.
 
When you buy a Ferrari, you don't put in 89 Octane gas or use Hankook tires (Tyres for you Brits?). Its a high end camera, it deserves to have talented crew operating it, and not just camera people, but sound department type crew / equipment too.

When working with older audio boards, in addition to making sure your using line level, also remember to put -10dB pads in place or if the mixer has configurable output levels, to adjust the output levels of the mixer to -10dB.
 
I don't believe in matching the gear as far as 'red is super awesome so you need a super awesome mic to match'

This translates as more gear lust, which i doubt is RED's motto in filmmaking.

gear lust is harmful and the more gear you have with sound the more channels a signal has to travel through, ultimately adding noise unless you're using fiberoptic cables, in that case you could've probably afforded much much more than the red to begin with.

I wouldn't recommend a mixer unless there's that absolute need for several channels to be mixed. Also if there's a need for multitracking, you're better off recording externally to a sequencer where you can later alter and mix down and do all the good stuff to your audio file.

Dunno about red's audio i/o but i find that if you have 2 mono inputs that's more than enough. If you're workin with more, and you're already going as digital as it gets (RED) record your audio on a multitrack. a g4 with 1G of RAM is way more than enough to handle 4 tracks recorded at 48khz.

I've used several amps and pres and mics before, the most versatile and affordable and durable mics are the shure sm57 and 58.

They are dynamic yes and are less sensitive than condenser mics. But coming from a backrgound in analog audio and heavy studio work, I find that the more 'boutique' your mic, the more your environment has to be controlled. If you're shooting outdoors, use an array of dynamics.

Condenser mics are super delicate, and end of the day, if you clip you clip. On a neumann on an akg on a shure.

I record low. Then boost up and clean. I try to keep my recorded files limited from the get go at -10 db. For music i bring everything up via compression after mixdown to the musical -.3 or other requirement for broadcast etc.

Always record at 48khz minimum. If you record at 96khz, master down to 48 as final. If you need a 44.1khz final, record at 88.2khz. Just like scaling down from hi res to low res have the numbers nice and even.

Cables are so important to noise. The more sensitive your mic, the more cable length and girth will matter (har har i said girth).

Haven't tried Red's audio board, but the less channels an audio signal travels through, the less noise you get. Record lower than you'd like.

In my opinion a soft mixer would serve better than an actual board, that way you can see the waveform you record. I set up cubase on a laptop and that's my recorder if I'm sitting down. that way you can really fine tune your input level.

Go with shure dynamics i say. Bring a laptop in. Is there any 'out' or 'thru' in the red board? that would be the difference if it had outputs as well as inputs, makes it an interface as opposed to just a recorder.

Cheers guys

t
 
I don't think "lust" makes any sort of sense here... at all... not when 50% of the audience's emotions are evoked by the audio.

And what does Red have to do with mics, did they start making them?

how are cables added by employing a mixer or monitoring box? If you want to get the sound, then you need your boom op to be able to hear what he is booming... positioning positioning positioning

even a monitoring box with nothing but phantom and a headphone jack will use the same amount of wires as any mixer... unless you go wireless, but then you are going wireless and that's a whole an other deal... or better yet, a mixer and a boom op which is the only way to fly unless you are talking about ENG or low budget

If you use a 702t or other recorder then your cable is only as long as your boom plus 5ft

if you want to get really pesky about it the best audio will always use good XLRs as opposed to wireless, of course wireless transmitters are phenomenal nowadays, if you have the money to get the right ones, however I am not talking about lavalier mics which do not sound anywhere close to a boom... I am only talking about transiting wirelessly... lavs are only good for backups if you care about your project... or course some lavs can sound very decent if that is the only avenue

audio suffers from cleaning... it should be avoided at all cost

if you do your own audio, and you bought a Red One package, you would be a fool not to make a solid investment into audio... sorry about the passion, please don't take it as a personal thing.. but if you don't try to match you don't understand, especially when you don't need anywhere close to the same amount of money to get decent audio, not in the same continent, you could get good audio with $2,500 worth of equipment going into a Red one, so long as your boom op is good

I mean good audio as in audio considered good by working mixers

if you clip it was not the mic's fault, it was the fault of the guy setting the gain

of course you can also match by hiring someone that does understand and has their own gear from job to job

beyond the gear there is also the all important operating... bad booming can make a $3,000 mic sound like a horse's ass after mowing a whole field by himself, or a $200 mic sound like an decent recording studio mic, provided you bought the right 200 dollar mic and are using it under the proper conditions of course... just like the old saying it is not the gear but the people operating it... or however it goes...

again, please don't take this post wrong but I am one of those guys fed up with people not caring about audio... one can not exist without the other, or it would feel like a 1929 movie

ok, enough ranting... sorry about that
 
hi Tarek, I also have many issues with you're post. I'm not trying to attack you, but I feel you don't understand production audio fully. You seem to have a "fix it in post" attitude with respect to audio that I'm sure you don't have with imagery. You're suggestion to bring up levels (normalize?) and clean (noise reduction) is akin to boosting the brightness and reducing the sharpness of an image, rather than lighting properly and using correct lenses, ISO settings, etc, during production.

You've eliminated all human elements from you're audio workflow, which is a shame, because that is probably the most important part of the mechanism. I do happen to splurge a little bit on my gear, but I think this only makes sense as my livelyhood is dependent on my equipment and skills, as my profession is audio. I'm interested in RED simply as a hobbyist and my curiosity about the equipment my coworkers use.

You may not be overly critical regarding sound quality and can enjoy a piece of cinema without becoming distracted by audio glitches. I think that is actually an admiral quality to have as a consumer of cinema, but it is unfair to assume that the entire consumer base shares you're aesthetic and to ignore conventions and quality that the industry embraces / demands. You owe it to yourself, the crew you collaborate with, you're investors, and you're audience to hire audio crew when you're budget allows.
 
I'm with all everyone on going out and feeding a proper signal, but all I'm trying to say is that when miking I find its more about the space than the mic used, etc.

I am easily satisfied, this is true, i don't mind glitches and the such, of course if avoided would be ideal, but in this case, set up an entire multitrack facility on set, then have your condensers charged up and ready.

I just like the SM58, if I'm plugging into a camera, that's probably what I'd do.

I do like to fix in post, I think certain things can be made up for.

At the same time, I've been in audio at a studio recording music for a while, I just started with imagery and booming is completely different for me than the ultra controlled environment you can build in a booth.

I dunno if I'm clear, I have been a mess so I may skip words, but I think if the red has outputs, or if you're recording into something where you can see a lot more than a VU meter, it would be a different case.

Sorry guys, thought I was helping.

Not feelin well. I'll keep it to myself next time, thought someone wanted to plug straight in and go. Fixing it in post is just how i play safe.

Cheers REDusers

Tarek
 
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