Crowdfunding...

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I'm not sure that crowdfunding is a way to validate a story. From Ricks testimony it looks like you have to "twist everyone's arm" into donating..
And these are people that you know one way or another. So it's easier to invoke emotions and get them (your acquaintances) to act upon (donate).
Validating a story would be separating the author and presenting the story only- kind of anonymous crowdfunding .
Now exploiting crowdfunding as viral/hype marketing toolset - that's another story. Absolutely brilliant!! But you need capital for that- catch 22 ...
Actually crowdfunding gadgets is a different story. I'm familiar with the manufacturing process. Tangible goods crowdfunding is just market research/ investor assurance tool. And hype marketing ofcourse- success in kickstarter breeds success for the product sales....
The amounts collected wouldn't even start paying for the projects. Also the time to market formula wouldn't work.
The product manufacturing is well under way by the time the kickstarter process is complete. Especially with electronics- the lead times are substantial- the money has to be there...
Anyway- that's my musing....

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

great story, Rick, and one of the reasons that I prefer Kickstarter to indiegogo - the deadline really lights a fire under your ass. Get it done or experience public failure. The stakes just feel higher, and I think it's possible to find ways, as you did, to get people to respond to that prospect.

Your material is great, by the way.

Mark, also, thanks for sharing your Facebook alternative - it's really interesting to see how people are making use of these tools in innovative ways. I think your method would work well for documentary/cause-driven productions.

So many intriguing projects that redusers are working on. It's quite inspiring.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Jacek... I think you're hitting the achilees heel of most crowdfunding projects quite accurately there...
Gee! We're in some sort of agreement!

As you cannot run that trick on your friends multiple times, it is a one-off source, UNLESS you manage to make yourself interesting outside the sphere that is already interested in you.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Jacek... I think you're hitting the achilees heel of most crowdfunding projects quite accurately there...
Gee! We're in some sort of agreement!

I disagree. How much "arm twisting" did Rick actually do?

Let's analyze this a bit.

Look at pages 7 to 5 of his backers:

7: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=7

6: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=6

5: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=5

These 3 pages show Rick's first 150 backers. There are some familiar names there from this forum including Tim Whitcomb and Tonaci Tran. If you look at the list it tells you who has backed other projects. Out of 150 people ONLY 2 people have backed another Kickstarter campaign. Dan Murphy and Ian George McDonell. Everyone else is a first-timer. What's that tell you?

The first 150 people were pretty much all Friends and Family.

On page 4 you start to see regular Kickstarter users who have backed several projects:

4: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=4

Out of those 50 people 13 have backed multiple projects and 37 are first-timers. Still some friends and family, but now getting more strangers that are taking notice of the project.

Now the last 3 pages are where things get interesting:

45 of 50 backed other projects: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=3

44 of 50 backed other projects: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=2

Every one of the last 50 backers backed multiple projects: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lm-shot-across-the-united-stat/backers?page=1

49 people backed the campaign in the last 4 to 5 hours. Almost everyone on that last page. All power users.

Rick got 170 backers in the last 39 hours of the campaign. 26 of the last 170 backers were first timers. The last 150 were almost all power users.

Rick's campaign was an early Kickstarter Staff Pick. This is a big advantage because it means you get featured on Kickstarters homepage (off and on) the last couple days of your campaign if it looks like you have a chance of reaching your goal. This definitely helped Rick get a boost at the end.

One big mistake he made was going 21 days with NO UPDATES on his page. I remember looking at the page thinking he threw in the towel. Had he kept posting updates he would have raised more money.

Also, had he not waited until the last few days to start contacting people and instead had done that early on in his campaign he would have ranked well on the "Popular" pages and gotten a lot more "power users". He also would have been featured more by Kickstarter. If he had done that earlier I am sure he would have raised over $50,000. Pointing this out is only meant to be constructive. I think Rick is doing a great job with his campaign now and I'm thrilled for him. I can't wait to see his updates and watch the film when it's done.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I didn't particularily refer to Ricks experience, outside his own explanation, which I found very enlightening in many ways...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

That's a very good analysis, Brandon, and also fairly congruent about what I was saying, in my first post, about setting your campaign up in advance to achieve its tipping point - once you achieve, from friends and family, somewhere between 40-60% funding success, your campaign will begin to be far more likely to attract "stranger" money

also, as I mentioned, this doesn't have to be a "one-off" source of funding, if you plan wisely.

one of the extra perks we threw in, for Teddy Boy, is a backers' barbecue before the film premieres. bringing as many people into community, to feel like they are part of a team, means they will be just as likely to participate in the next round as they were in this one. I would venture to say that if we give our funders a good experience (and a good film!), instead of just draining their wallets, they will give even more next time.

being innovative about leveraging the medium is important. you give to receive.

It is a shit ton of work...but a lot more rewarding than maxing out your credit cards or taking a part time job....yields faster results too.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Excellent analysis on crowd funding by all contributors.

This funding model is valid & works. However it is not create some media upload, sit back, do nothing else and let the money roll in.

In my country being a small nation traditionally a lot of projects have relied on government funding or incentives in one form or another. This has meant IMO production approvals been given to work public servants like to see . Crowd funding removes all that crap. For me it has helped co-fund 2 projects in the last 5 months alone.

Will this funding model still be around in a couple years ,who knows ? But whilst it is here I will continue to use it with no qualms .

P.S Great breakdown of Ricks project, Brandon........ reinforces what we have all been discussing . I find it telling that there was no updates in the 1st 21 days. But hey Rick got it across the line with a lot of "cyber cramming" in those last few hours. Sort a makes me wonder if in addition to a production people on a team it would help to have a web master or group in the mix to get it out there.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

you cannot run that trick on your friends multiple times, it is a one-off source, UNLESS you manage to make yourself interesting outside the sphere that is already interested in you.

If you do a Kickstarter campaign and deliver your Rewards as promised the sky is the limit on your forthcoming campaigns.

I'll provide some examples:

Example 1

Ryan James Yezak launched his first Kickstarter campaign on March 27th, 2011.

Goal: $7,000
Total Backers: 79
Total Raised: $7,605


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...k-presents-only-gay-in-the-world-mu?ref=users

-

On January 9th, 2012 Ryan launched his second Kickstarter campaign.

Second Class Citizens Documentary


Goal: $50,000
Backers: 4,272
Raised: $176,354

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ryanjamesyezak/second-class-citizens-documentary?ref=users

Example 2

Amanda Palmer launched her first Kickstarter on September 16th, 2010.

Amanda Palmer Presents: Tristan Allen's Debut EP (Recording/Release)

Goal: $3,300
Backers:437Raised: $8,581

-

On September 6th, 2011, almost exactly a year later, she launched her second Kickstarter campaign.

An Evening With Neil Gaiman & Amanda Palmer

Goal: $20,000
Backers: 3,873
Raised: $133,341

-

Then on April 30th, 2012 she launched her 3rd Kickstarter... and this is one for the record books.

Amanda Palmer: The new RECORD, ART BOOK, and TOUR

Goal: $100,000
Backers: 24,883
Raised: $1,192,793 (!!!!)

-

There are tons of examples like this! If you have a successful campaign and deliver on what is promised the odds are excellent that your next campaign will be successful.

Here are 12 more examples:

http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/zombieorpheus/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/freddiew/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/textfiles/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/554272471/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/fingerprintfilms/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1341817656/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/KatherineBrooks/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1136753854/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/blinkworks/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1985325871/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/submissionsonly/created
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/scorgie/created

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Brandon. Agree on that!

Point is to make a reach beyond those you know you'll initially teach.

But sure. i see your point. Just thinking about what to do and what not to do...

 

[Brandon J.F.]

There is not one formula for success... My campaign was quite different than Rick's.

I had 103 backers in the first 24 hours.

Here is how the first 24 hours breaks down:

• 5 family members.
• 10 friends.
• 88 people I don't know.

Next 100 backers:

• 4 family members
• 7 friends
• 89 people I don't know

I haven't gone through the entire list or I would provide an overall breakdown. Of the 1,013 people that backed my campaign I'd estimate that around 70 or so were friends and family. The majority came from Twitter. We were actually "trending" on Twitter 3 times during the campaign. We were also Project of the Day and Project of the Week on Indiewire so that gave us a little boost. We were also a Kickstarter Staff Pick which definitely helped. During much of our campaign we were the most popular active narrative film project on Kickstarter.

No arms twisted with friends or family at all.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Thanks Brandon! We're in sync!

 

[Rick Darge]

WOW! Thanks for that breakdown Brandon and I do agree with you that if I had been pushing full force like I did the last week, things would have probably been different. However. I believe everything happens the way it's supposed to happen. If I didn't "get my shit together" in that final week, I wouldn't have learned the most important lesson about self-marketing my work and having total confidence in my art. If I didn't go into the darkness and have the thought that it could all be lost and then come back up and be triumphant, it would have been an entirely different lasting effect if I was slow, steady and strong (longest sentence ever) I had to go through the dark in order to see the light if that makes sense. So because of that, I regret nothing and am so excited to get going on this now.... I look forward to Hybrid Vigor man! Can't wait!

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

After reading this I think everyone should just hire Brandon and give him a cut! He's definitely done his homework and Im sure he would more than pay for his percentage. Seriously Brandon.

But like all these campaigns, it all starts with the project... or are you saying garbage with great marketing gets funded? Also I use multiple kickstarter accounts and then delete them because I dont invest in people I havent met in the real world... I also gave funds to some Indie Go Go projects. .. which I always create a new fund for.

I dont like the incessant emails to look at others.. so Im not the typical "serial backer." For me, its starts in the real world.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

After reading this I think everyone should just hire Brandon and give him a cut! He's definitely done his homework and Im sure he would more than pay for his percentage. Seriously Brandon.

Ditto what Tim said - exactly what I was thinking. I thought I had this stuff down, but Brandon REALLY is on fire with the analysis. Get him or someone like him to produce your crowdfunding campaign. Pay him a percentage. Make your art.

I did have the thought, as I was conducting my own Kickstarter, that someone entrepreneurial could invent a Kickstarter bridge loan program. You could use the same $10K over and over again to insure the success and allow your campaign to reach higher - say, for instance, you initiate a campaign for $35K, knowing that you already have $10K to bridge the campaign if you make it to $25K but not all the way to $35K, and you pay loan shark 10% + applicable taxes for this insurance - then you don't leave that money on the table. Say the loan shark makes 10% on that same $10K, you could use that same $10K, say 6x/year on six different campaigns for a total annual return of $6K on a $10K investment.

Too bad I'm more interested in making films than I am in starting a crowdfunding bridge loan company - a 60% return over one year is a pretty killer possibility.

 

[Joe G.]

I usually end up devil's advocate with a slightly different perspective on things. That's why I'm a writer.

About ten years ago, my wife's cousin did her own personal Kickstarter type pitch, sending out letters or emails to the family asking for money to fund her first film. I was also a wannabe filmmaker at the time, and thought the prospect of hounding relatives for money so crass, presumptuous and annoying that it was a bit shocking. My wife, and her mother (the recipient of said letter) felt the same. What's changed?

Now there's a website to act as intermediary.

Okay. Maybe I'm afraid of appearing so desperate, but I don't have any intention of ever hounding relatives for money. I find the concept abhorrent.

Strangers who seek out the content, however, perhaps. That's why I haven't dismissed the idea entirely. Several great inventions have been put out there on Kickstarter, some that could improve the lives of extremely poor people around the world. Others have created film related gizmos with instant demand for a product, based on a successful prototype. Fine.

Shameless begging for money however? No thank you. I'd rather try my chances elsewhere.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Thanks everyone for this thread. I haven't come across a better community for filmmaking than reduser.net.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Thanks Brandon! We're in sync!

Great. I really want to see you do this and succeed.

I believe everything happens the way it's supposed to happen. If I didn't "get my shit together" in that final week, I wouldn't have learned the most important lesson about self-marketing my work and having total confidence in my art. If I didn't go into the darkness and have the thought that it could all be lost and then come back up and be triumphant, it would have been an entirely different lasting effect if I was slow, steady and strong (longest sentence ever) I had to go through the dark in order to see the light if that makes sense. So because of that, I regret nothing and am so excited to get going on this now.... I look forward to Hybrid Vigor man! Can't wait!

Nothing to regret at all! You summed it up perfectly. There is a lot I will do differently the next time around. One thing I had trouble with was appearing on camera. I just don't like doing it, but you have to do it. People want to see who they are giving money to. So, I sucked it up and did it.

Do you plan to use Kickstarter to raise the funds to finish the film? If you keep up with the weekly updates I think you'll have no problem raising the money.

After reading this I think everyone should just hire Brandon and give him a cut! He's definitely done his homework and Im sure he would more than pay for his percentage. Seriously Brandon.

I don't know if I even have time for that. It's a tremendous amount of work One of the most popular reward packages for our backers was the "Marketing Package" which is an in depth course in how to do this. The main focus is on Twitter and Kickstarter. So, a few hundred people out there will know quite a bit about all this stuff soon.

But like all these campaigns, it all starts with the project... or are you saying garbage with great marketing gets funded?

I've seen a lot of garbage get funded, but not for large amounts. $10,000 and less. I've also seen some amazing projects go nowhere. There is one VFX course IGG campaign now that is crashing and burning. Maybe they will turn it around, but I'm skeptical. Great idea, but bad marketing.

I dont like the incessant emails to look at others.. so Im not the typical "serial backer." For me, its starts in the real world.

I get email updates from almost 200 campaigns so I know how it goes. I setup a filter to archive and label them and I go back and skim them when I have time. Certain projects I will setup special filters for so I don't miss updates.

Ditto what Tim said - exactly what I was thinking. I thought I had this stuff down, but Brandon REALLY is on fire with the analysis. Get him or someone like him to produce your crowdfunding campaign. Pay him a percentage. Make your art.

Thanks Meryem. This is just quick stuff. Much of it I really can't make public

I did have the thought, as I was conducting my own Kickstarter, that someone entrepreneurial could invent a Kickstarter bridge loan program. You could use the same $10K over and over again to insure the success and allow your campaign to reach higher - say, for instance, you initiate a campaign for $35K, knowing that you already have $10K to bridge the campaign if you make it to $25K but not all the way to $35K, and you pay loan shark 10% + applicable taxes for this insurance - then you don't leave that money on the table. Say the loan shark makes 10% on that same $10K, you could use that same $10K, say 6x/year on six different campaigns for a total annual return of $6K on a $10K investment.

Too bad I'm more interested in making films than I am in starting a crowdfunding bridge loan company - a 60% return over one year is a pretty killer possibility.

There are ways around this without needing a bridge loan, but if I post it publicly I'm liable to piss off people I don't want to piss off

About ten years ago, my wife's cousin did her own personal Kickstarter type pitch, sending out letters or emails to the family asking for money to fund her first film. I was also a wannabe filmmaker at the time, and thought the prospect of hounding relatives for money so crass, presumptuous and annoying that it was a bit shocking. My wife, and her mother (the recipient of said letter) felt the same. What's changed?

That worked for Darren Arronofsky. To fund Pi he asked everyone he knew for $100. Some people later put in more to help finish it. I have no idea what the tone of his pitch was, but the idea was the same.

Okay. Maybe I'm afraid of appearing so desperate, but I don't have any intention of ever hounding relatives for money. I find the concept abhorrent.

I actually agree with you, but if you feel desperate you will appear desperate and people will be skeptical. If you feel confident you will appear confident and people will want to be a part of it.

Strangers who seek out the content, however, perhaps. That's why I haven't dismissed the idea entirely.

10% of the films at Sundance the last 2 years were funded, at least in part, with Kickstarter campaigns. 6 Kickstarter films have received Oscar nominations. 3 this year. Crowdfunding is here to stay.

Shameless begging for money however? No thank you. I'd rather try my chances elsewhere.

Believe in yourself and your abilities and that confidence will give others confidence in you. Get strangers to believe in and back you and your friends and family will come in droves to do the same. I didn't email family members. They emailed each other. When my campaign ended I had friends/family write me upset that they didn't back my campaign before the deadline.

 

[Mike Garrick]

@ Joe I respect writers immensely, this business wouldn't exist without them .......but doesn't writing involve a degree of begging ( for funding ) no matter which way you cut it ?

Sorry that's the Producer in me talking ; ) !

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Great. I really want to see you do this and succeed.

Thanks. That's very generous.
I am still contemplating this whole thing.

But I agree, it can succeed in a good way.
What I have to ponder, as time is part of the equation, is where to spend that time the best.

I/we will hopefully make "a" decission tomorrow, but just now we'll probably try to balloon it...
That is to set up a FB/youtube page and see if they attract any attention at all.

And just do it slowly, not try to hide that there's gonna be a campaign, but just check if we manage to gain some interest.
If there is interest, there might be funding...

Well... now I am talking about one project...

For the geeky shit (like writing stuff on linear light and why it might be a good idea to have a hunch etc), there is a couple of other things holding me back, so I'll just have to think about it a little longer, independently of whether it's fundable, and that is more like:
Yup.... I see the need for "someone" to write this stuff and put it into whoevers hands that want to access it, but is it really my job?
Andam I really the "right guy" to do that.
I usually stamp on a few toes when doing that kind of stuff, which all techies with an opinion do. But I have seen the discussions derail into "toes" rather than "subject" so many times that I wonder if it is in any way worthwile. Unless I would like to go up someone like Phil Blooms path, which I definitely see that can be self-propelling abd economically viable, but I have no need to be an internet guru (if I ever had the potential to be one...)

Actually, what really interests me, are those oddly angled projects of mine. The mainstream stuff I do mainly serves as a (not unimportant) source of income, and something that takes away the question of "does he really know what the heck he's doing?", which (of course) some of the things I go for myself rises...

Ah... Not fully true... As they have quite a few networking and connections implications and a lot of good social relations involved as well.
But as to things I "wanna make before I die"...
Well... Not allways... All that much.

Then again, I want my stuff to be seen...

Just pondering here.

Hahahaha

Thanks for all the great advices, anyhow!

And I'll place a bet on the ballooning and see how it goes, I guess, But I hope to see more contributions to this thread!

Thanks to all for sharing!

Really dig this place for exactly that!

G
Is it maybe smarter of me just to use that knowledge to get things done (and I am not really thinking about competitive advantage here, just about "what do I want to spend my time on")

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Gunleik, sorry I missed this. Can you DM me your email? I have some ideas for you...