Court Rules that Unpaid Interns on Black Swan and 500 Days of Summer can sue Fox

[Matt Ryan]

Matt - just to clarify - you might want to look into the history of the Republican party and it's evolution since 1860 before you have George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln sitting over tea. LOL

I study history quite often. If I had to pick a party it would be Republican over Democrats. I'm Independent and vote accordingly. Both sides are just as corrupt and evil as the other, they just have their own base of supporters... Your crazy if you think one is better than the other (no offense meant Terry). Politics is a funny thing. So is business.

This whole case is ridiculous. These people will get paid some amount and never be able to work again (in the industry). Now companies will be stricter on internships and some will throw out the opportunities all together. So really now it's even harder to get your foot in a door or to network. Oh well. Apparently I'm rich anyways since I was able to take an unpaid internship.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I think a lot of this intern abuse happens more in the production office and when working for producers -- on the movie set, the craft unions are pretty strict about not letting craft interns do any skilled work (which could cause a union member to be replaced by an intern) so the position is more about observation and learning, less about being personal slaves driving people around, getting coffee, and dropping off the dry cleaning. Sure, a lot of that menial labor stuff has to get done on a production, the question is whether it is really an experience of educational value or unskilled labor with a financial value. I don't think this lawsuit would have happened if the production system hadn't started taking advantage of interns in terms of just assuming that "x" amount of production work can be done by unpaid labor and figuring that into the budget. I hope this whole situation leads to some reform of the internship system rather than its elimination because it does have value for beginners. But there has to be better guidelines as to what an intern should do and not do.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

On the face of it, Brandon, of course you are right (IMO). However, that assumes that both parties are honest and dealing in good faith. If so, it's always easier to understand how things really work. Life is never black and white, though. Perhaps every one isn't as honest as you are, or as the producer you dealt with as an "intern." (Wrong term since it doesn't sound like you got academic credit.)

And, as has been pointed out, your actions have consequences for others as well. How would you feel if a swarm of new USC film grads - rich kids without loans, just for the sake of argument, swarmed over your set and took several of the paying gigs, including yours - because the producer owed his powerful friend a "favor." And, heck, why not - they work for free; any producer likes FREE. Even though they can afford to drive to the set in the Porsches they got for graduation. Now, imagine you find out they actually work hard and learned something in film school so after a couple weeks, they are pretty competent. Bummer, you have to keep hustling for new gigs.

I don't/can't know your age, experience or economic circumstance just as you don't know mine. Every person and every person's experiences are different. What some of us are advocating here is fairness. It is, by the nature of our society, very hard to come by.

Life isn't fair. My Dad has spent most of his adult life blind and now is also paralyzed from the chest down. He lost the genetic lottery. Twice. Never once have I heard him complain. We are all dealt the hand we are dealt in life and you never know when you might have the rug pulled completely out from under you. We have to play our cards the best we can. I expect nothing to be easy. I don't have time to complain about circumstance and fairness. I'm going to take whatever I've got and use it to the best of my ability. I know the things I want to accomplish in my life and the only thing that's going to stop me from achieving them is death. That's my worldview.

For background, I really suggest reading Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers - The Story of Success. I'll bet you don't know what the single most important determinant of success in the NHL is.

I read it when it first came out. The answer is date of birth. Good book.

 

[Ed David]

I am proud of these people and their lawsuit. As David Mullen said, there is some abuse probably going on in the system and it needs to be examined. I don't know anything of the case, but I know in New York some production companies that really did abuse the unpaid internship. They claimed they couldn't afford it but I know they were making decent money. Exploitation of workers is now ingrained in American culture as the top CEO makes over 300 times the average employee. Not the janitor, but the average person sitting there. Anything to counteract this is a good thing.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

It's one thing to not whine or complain because life has stuck you suddenly in a wheelchair, for example... but that doesn't mean that buildings having wheelchair ramps isn't a good thing in terms of reducing the restrictions on getting about one's business. Ideally we should have, within practical limits, a level playing field because sometimes the hurdles thrown at the handicapped or other disadvantaged folks are hard to get beyond, and society is better off if more people can contribute to business, art, leadership, etc.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Here is some food for thought related to the discussion at hand.

This issue was recently brought up by a freelancer group I am a member of in Tokyo, with the aim of not working for free, or to discuss under what circumstances it is acceptable to work for free.

WOuld love to continue the discussion here and hear you guys thoughts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/digital-economy-work-for-free

Good read thanks Ivan, especially her closing statement:

For what is being eroded is not only actual wages but also the very idea that work must be paid for. Huge profits are being made from these so-called opportunities for our youth. But they are, in fact, the exploitation of insecurity.

 

[Paul Russell]

Even slaves get bed, board and transfer to work.

This is the same argument as 'for the exposure', which is getting a little long in the tooth now and largely discredited.
Although if you'd like to get plenty of work 'for the exposure' there's a company called Userfarm (http://www.userfarm.com/en) that specialises in crowd sourcing free shit for large corporates. Personally I think it's a rip off. YMMV.

 

[Matt Ryan]

internship=slavery? wow...

One is a choice and you can leave any time if you feel slighted.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have not looked into this lawsuit or any of the details around it. But I will say that I see labor abuse all the time in the entertainment industry. I think the only industry that preys upon the young and upcoming more than the production business is the gaming industry.

While people are always able to work for free if that is their choice, those who hire them still have to play by the rules set forth in whatever country, state, jurisdiction, etc.. this work transpires in. In the USA there are actually laws at several levels from Federal on down the line, which dictate what constitutes an "internship". And this is where a lot of employers can get themselves into trouble. In order for an employer to call a position an "internship", there must be a compensatory factor that is the equivalent of a paid wage. So if it is an unpaid internship, then by law here in the USA, those participating should be gaining school credit or some other benefit. If not, then it is an outright scam, plain and simple. And as others have said previously in this thread, it is a scourge on the industry.

Just because someone willingly signs up to work for free and knows they can walk away, that does not mean they are not being exploited. Many young people don't know any better. Many people are told they have to do this to get a leg up in this business or to be able to get a better job or more work down the line. All of those claims are complete and utter BS.

I can't comment about all the other states in the US, but in both Colorado and Arizona, for any position to be called an "internship", it must be compensated by means of school credit in the form of class credits or tuition credit and approved through an accredited internship program. If I'm not mistaken, California works the same way. However, as with many things in the production industry that are a little off kilter from how they should be, people will often turn a blind eye because it's the business that drives movies and celebrities and fashion and...

There are times when people can work for free, for a variety of reasons. That is something else. But when some kid signs on for a non-paying job, because it's an "internship" and he's not getting anything out of it other than "experience" and a promise of future work that may as well be written on toilet paper, then that's just plain wrong. For any of you here that fell victim to that, and it seems some of you have, I'm sorry.

Also, this thread has been teetering on the edge of dangerously political, but I suppose this can become a political subject of sorts.

 

[Stacey Spears]

It is rather well known in the corporate/tech world these days that corporations are pulling out all the stops to put younger people and out-of-work folks in a very disadvantaged position.

Which tech companies? Google, Microsoft, and Apple pay interns very well. They usually intern during their summer break, while going to college. They are often given paid housing and lots of other perks. I had an intern last year that I made an offer too at the end of his internship. He went back and finished up his senior year and then started shortly after graduating.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I have not looked into this lawsuit or any of the details around it. But I will say that I see labor abuse all the time in the entertainment industry. I think the only industry that preys upon the young and upcoming more than the production business is the gaming industry.

+1 Some people think artist have to work for free as they profit on their creativity - it's just a extremely selfish viewpoint by people that do not create and want to manipulate those that can. I agree with David Mullen that this is rare on the actual set during profesional shoots, where I see where this is out of control is on low budget indie stuff. My personal belief is that all interns should be paid, but not to full scale.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I interned for a broadcast talk show that has been running almost three decades. They didn't pay. I didn't sue them but the reality is they could of easily paid us minimum wage. Lots of people were paying twenty a day to commute on metro north to work for free. Thats not right

 

[Terry VerHaar]

internship=slavery? wow...

One is a choice and you can leave any time if you feel slighted.

Matt - does this mean that a young woman who feels pressured by the actions of her boss to sleep with him in order to keep her job or make advancement is doing it without duress? Is that not an exploitive situation. One party hast the power and the other feels powerless? She doesn't have to succumb but in certain conditions, under pressure, "free will" isn't as easy to come by. And she realizes she might have to sue to have any hope of keeping her job.

Some times rules are needed to bolster our social contracts.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I study history quite often. If I had to pick a party it would be Republican over Democrats. I'm Independent and vote accordingly. Both sides are just as corrupt and evil as the other, they just have their own base of supporters... Your crazy if you think one is better than the other (no offense meant Terry). Politics is a funny thing. So is business.

This whole case is ridiculous. These people will get paid some amount and never be able to work again (in the industry). Now companies will be stricter on internships and some will throw out the opportunities all together. So really now it's even harder to get your foot in a door or to network. Oh well. Apparently I'm rich anyways since I was able to take an unpaid internship.

The debate isn't over Dems and GOP - we all have opinions. I am just suggesting that the Republicans who freed the slaves are hardly the ancestors of today's GOP; pretty much the opposite.

And folks should accept injustice so as not to step on the toes of power because they fear reprisal and punishment? Wow - that would be one sucky society.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Matt - does this mean that a young woman who feels pressured by the actions of her boss to sleep with him in order to keep her job or make advancement is doing it without duress? Is that not an exploitive situation. One party hast the power and the other feels powerless? She doesn't have to succumb but in certain conditions, under pressure, "free will" isn't as easy to come by. And she realizes she might have to sue to have any hope of keeping her job.

Some times rules are needed to bolster our social contracts.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be rules, but reading this lawsuit, none of these people were under duress.

The debate isn't over Dems and GOP - we all have opinions. I am just suggesting that the Republicans who freed the slaves are hardly the ancestors of today's GOP; pretty much the opposite.

And folks should accept injustice so as not to step on the toes of power because they fear reprisal and punishment? Wow - that would be one sucky society.

No one said they should accept it. As they shouldn't. I feel bad for anyone who was taken advantage of. But everyone's thinking in terms of these huge conglomerates that do have the money for interns, but the reality is not every company can. Does that mean they shouldn't have interns? I enjoyed my internship and was grateful for the experience but I understand everyone has different experiences. I really do want it to be a good experience for everyone, after all, it's free labor for companies.

I'll bow out of the conversation now because obviously everyone differs based on their own experiences and beliefs. Let's just all agree that standards should be stricter and actually enforced. On pay we can agree to disagree, if the company can afford it then they should pay, if not....

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm as guilty as the next guy here, but let's steer this back to the internship question and away from political parties and avoid hyperbole like comparing internship to slavery, or else the thread will be closed.

I think the judge ruled correctly here, that by the definition of an internship, the criteria that the value of the unpaid labor was equivalent to an education, wasn't being met in this case. It just means that internships in the future are going to have to mean a bit more than getting free labor to do the dirty work as if that in itself has some sort of educational or career value (other than teaching you to never intern again in the future.) Doesn't mean that there isn't an argument in favor of the opportunity to participate on a movie in a small capacity, it's just that if there isn't much education going on relative to the labor, then perhaps the labor shouldn't be free because it has become true work and the laws regarding work have to be applied (i.e. minimum wage, etc.)

As for the argument that some companies can't afford to pay people for the work, isn't that the cost of doing business? There are some things you know you have to pay for, like electricity or food or water, etc. and you budget accordingly -- it's only because it's become a convention to allow free labor through internships that productions simply don't budget for that work.

Truth is that some bad productions have killed their golden goose, so to speak, taken what on paper seemed like a win-win for everyone -- some unpaid labor in exchange for education and opportunity -- and abused the system and the interns.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

One is a choice and you can leave any time if you feel slighted.

Let's say you've dropped $40k on university and you now want to work in the industry that you've been working towards since you were a wee lad. Suddenly you're told you have to be an indentured servant for a year or else you won't get a job. That's coercion. That's not a free choice. Yes, it's in your best interest to take the year of indentured servitude but as a society we object to the exploitation.

There is this assumption among many people that rational actors will just magically create a fair and equitable system. But that's not the real world that we live in. We live in a world where people will literally sell their children into sex slavery if they're desperate enough. People will literally sell themselves into slavery if they are desperate enough "better a slave than dead". There are a lot of people here saying "Oh well... if they choose to be exploited... they should have that right!" No. They shouldn't. Because everybody gets dragged down by that. You shouldn't have to compete with a starving desperate person who is acting against their own long term interests in order to survive till tomorrow. That only leads to more starving desperate people. Look at the VFX industry. People will eat the chicken that lays the eggs if it means they won't starve today. That's an unhealthy industry. That's an unsustainable industry and that's an industry that eventually implodes on itself as it loses all of its talent and the powers that be can no longer control the monster they've created.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Let's say you've dropped $40k on university and you now want to work in the industry that you've been working towards since you were a wee lad. Suddenly you're told you have to be an indentured servant for a year or else you won't get a job. That's coercion. That's not a free choice. Yes, it's in your best interest to take the year of indentured servitude but as a society we object to the exploitation. People will literally sell their children into sex slavery if they're desperate enough. People will literally sell themselves into slavery if they are desperate enough "better a slave than dead". There are a lot of people here saying "Oh well... if they choose to be a slave... they should have that right!" No. They shouldn't. Because everybody gets dragged down by that. You shouldn't have to compete with a starving desperate person. That only leads to more starving desperate people. Look at the VFX industry. People will eat the chicken that lays the eggs if it means they won't starve today.

If what you claim is true, I'd say the education system is as much a scam. I spent $60k on a college degree and got no help entering the industry. Sure I received knowledge, but what does it matter if I can't get work. Should I sue them? Should I take an unpaid internship so I at least have something on my resume?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If what you claim is true, I'd say the education system is as much a scam. I spent $60k on a college degree and got no help entering the industry. Sure I received knowledge, but what does it matter if I can't get work. Should I sue them? Should I take an unpaid internship so I at least have something on my resume?

Presumably you received $60k worth of education. The problem is sure you're willing to work for free for 6 months. But then someone else really really wants to work in the industry and they offer to work for free for 7 months. And the next guy says "wait... I need a job. I'll work for 8 months." And so on and so forth. Here is a crazy idea... everybody gets paid from day one. And you get experience. It's called an entry level job. They used to exist. Companies used to understand that they had to hire someone for a while and train them in their particular ways of working. Then companies started firing people at-will because they wanted "Flexibility" well... with flexibility the employees decided they had no loyalty to the company so they started leaving more and more frequently. As a result they weren't sticking around long enough to get trained. As soon as they finished their entry level work they were leaving for a better company. So companies cut their training even more and demanded workers show up trained and ready. So schools started charging students for the education.

This is a long term downward spiral that we've been on for a long long time. Not only are we expected to now pay for our own training in the form of tens of thousands of dollars of tuition. But some places are expecting people to even work for free for 3, 4, even 8 months (I know people who have taken nearly year long unpaid internships to get a job). He who is willing to give the most free labor is most likely to maybe get a job at the end. And your alternative is to throw that all away and start over doing something else. I say screw that. How about an honest wage for an honest day's work? What ever happened to that?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Presumably you received $60k worth of education. The problem is sure you're willing to work for free for 6 months. But then someone else really really wants to work in the industry and they offer to work for free for 7 months. And the next guy says "wait... I need a job. I'll work for 8 months." And so on and so forth. Here is a crazy idea... everybody gets paid from day one. And you get experience. It's called an entry level job. They used to exist. Companies used to understand that they had to hire someone for a while and train them in their particular ways of working. Then companies started firing people at-will because they wanted "Flexibility" well... with flexibility the employees decided they had no loyalty to the company so they started leaving more and more frequently. As a result they weren't sticking around long enough to get trained. As soon as they finished their entry level work they were leaving for a better company. So companies cut their training even more and demanded workers show up trained and ready. So schools started charging students for the education.

This is a long term downward spiral that we've been on for a long long time. Not only are we expected to now pay for our own training in the form of tens of thousands of dollars of tuition. But some places are expecting people to even work for free for 3, 4, even 8 months (I know people who have taken nearly year long unpaid internships to get a job). He who is willing to give the most free labor is most likely to maybe get a job at the end. And your alternative is to throw that all away and start over doing something else. I say screw that. How about an honest wage for an honest day's work? What ever happened to that?

That's a great thing in an ideal world. But what happens once those entry level positions are filled. No one else gets a shot. So that seems like it's going to create the same cycle eventually although with a small percentage getting minimum wage. I'm just trying to think of it from multiple views rather than just screw them they should pay. Because not everyone can afford it. Most internships here in LA have to be approved and receive college credit for their internship. Most colleges have programs of approving these internships and verifying their legitimacy, and if there are complaints they report it and alert students not to take a position there. I honestly think it would be great if there were more paid entry positions, the more the better. But we all know that won't happen anytime soon (sadly). If the economy were in better shape then it's a better likelihood.