Cooper to 744T vs just 744T

[Michael Panfeld]

Hi:

for a while now I have been using and definitely loving a Cooper CS104 with direct-out set to post-fade feeding a SD 744T (with no gain on the 744T). 4 in 4 out 4 tracks and sounds fantastic. I set the levels/cutlimit on the Cooper; the 744T is just a recorder/monitor set at unity gain. I also am thinking about changing to a 788T with either a CL-8 or -9 or perhaps a Nomad with their add-on fader board. However, a recent experience has given me pause.

I did a quick webinar gig near my office and decided to go light just a mic feeding directly into the 744T. BTW, the mic is an Oktava 2500 vacuum tube mic modded by Michael Joly - luscious sound. Anyway, I felt like I did not have the same amount of available gain in the 744T alone that I had with the Cooper + 744. In fact, I really would have liked to have set higher levels, but towards the end of the 744's gain, I started to get a noticeable noise floor. I can rule out any peculiarities caused by the mic, because I used the same mic 2 months earlier in combo with the Cooper/744.

I guess one could conclude that the mic-pres on the Cooper have more headroom than the 744. Is that true of the 788T? Of the Nomad?

I'd appreciate any thoughts? Thanks

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

We own the 788T and love it. We find that it has no shortage of headroom for anything we've ever thrown at it, although your mileage may vary, of course. We are particularly pleased with the low-noise characteristics of the preamps.

We have never used the Cooper, so we can't help you on that score.

Stephen

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Thanks Stephen. I am hoping that some others who have experience/knowledge of all three can chime in.

 

[Marc Wielage]

The Coopers are wonderful mixers, but I don't think they're appropriate for tube microphones. To me, you want the low noise floor and handling characteristics of solid-state mikes like Schoeps, Sennheiser, or Neumann. The point of the mixer is mainly to do a mono mix, not a 4-track mix. The other tracks are ideally for iso tracks in the event a handful of lines are missed during the actual mix.

The Oktavas are fine for recording studio use, for musicians, for musical instruments, and so on. But they would not be my primary choice for film sound dialog. You need a mike that's going to hold up under bad weather conditions, weird humidity, sudden shocks, dust, indoor/outdoor transitions, even traveling on planes, boats, and other vehicles.

This is a subjective area on which you'll get many opinions, but what I see most often on sets are Schoeps, Sennheisers, plus Sanken & Countryman lavs.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Marc: I know that you have a lot of knowledge and I was definitely looking forward to hearing from you. However, you have completely missed the point of my questions.

First, I was not asking about recording dialog on a film set. This particular gig was a webinar, recorded in a sound booth, to be broadcast via the net. One person speaking, sitting at a table.

Second, I am not talking about a small diaphragm capsule mic, like the Schoeps or a lav mic like the COS-11. The Oktava 2500 is a large diaphragm capsule. It is a studio mic. These are totally different classes of mics. BTW, I own 4 Schoeps mics and about 6 COS11s and a bunch on Sonotrims and MKE2s for my film work. We actually tested a Schoeps 641 side-by-side with the Oktava 2500 and a COS11 and everyone (especially the client) said the Oktava was the hands-down winner.

Third, I was really asking about the Cooper mic-pre's compared to the SD744T's mic pre's (and by extension, whether the 788Ts mic-pre's are the same as the 744Ts). I did notice a difference in noise floor and headroom. Just checking as to whether that was my imagination or something real and, looking for some opinions on the mic-pre's on the Cooper vs SD or on the specific pathway: mic => Cooper => SD (setting the gain on the Cooper) versus Mic =>SD (setting the gain on the SD) in terms of noise floor and headroom.

(Why do I get that sinking feeling that someone will chime in on how Sonosax or Zaxcom or Aaton beats them all, sigh!)

 

[Marc Wielage]

I know. But the Oktava is not what I would choose for one person sitting at a table. To me, it sounds like a $250 Russian-designed Chinese microphone with a noisy tube stage. You asked for opinions: you get opinions. Microphones are highly subjective, just like lenses, filters, and speakers.

The 788t's preamps are not the same as the 744t's -- the former employ more digital circuitry, and level changes are handled in the digital domain. The 744t is all analog, from about 7 years ago, I believe. Real-world, I don't think there's a massive difference.

Gain-staging is a critical area, particularly between input level, fader level, output level, and recorder level. If it's just one mike for a webcast, I'd say shut down the console and just hose the mike into the 744t as straight mono. It just doesn't matter. In an average room, the background noise is going to be far worse than the self-noise of the microphone and the relative noise of the preamp stage. If the guy is just talking in a normal voice, there's 20 mikes that will sound fine, provided you can get them close enough. You're not exactly recording a cello performance at Lincoln Center. I'm speaking as a guy who's recorded at least 500 major-market radio commercials (in a former life some years ago).

The acoustics of the room will be a greater factor, and I would worry more about the actor staying on-mike and sounding as clear as possible, particularly in a highly-compressed web feed. I would do a 1-minute test and see (and hear) how the sound plays throughout your chosen workflow, particularly once it's stepped on by Vimeo or YouTube-type data compression. And I would also consider the timbre of the person's voice, and whether it suits the specific microphone. A little EQ or dynamic range compression might be necessary in order to improve audibility in some cases.

You might also ask the pro mixers on the JWSound Group, and see what they have to say. Jeff Wexler himself is a huge Cooper fan and has owned several over the years; he also has used the Oktava microphones, but mainly uses Schoeps and DPAs, as I recall.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Thanks Mark. That's much more of what I was looking for. I used to be on JW's forum, but abandoned it because of the constant obnoxious posts from some clown named Oleg.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Oleg is gone (for the moment). Jeff runs a pretty tight ship, and I think that most people there are very helpful and conciliatory. But I make it a point to try to stay out of any discussions on politics.