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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Conundrum...

I use very sophisticated audio DSP's with ASICs. We get major software updates to these regularly that define or add entirely new functions, so it depends on what the ASIC is doing and how it is configured. No reason that it should be limiting for programmable software functions.
 
Jim:

Your vision got us here. Just keep doing what you and the RED team do best. However long it takes. In the meantime, RED One is on the street and on stage, providing a spectacular glimpse of the amazing things to come.

:thumbsup:
 
One more vote for taking your time and getting it right. I'm more than happy to wait a little longer and get an absolutely kick-ass Epic right out of the gate - especially if it's built around an ASIC chipset that is less upgradeable in the field...

I think you can safely say at this point that you've earned the trust of your customers (and the majority of the industry) Jim - just do your thing man!

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Buy a 35mm DOF adapter for my HV20 and a new PC .... or ... wait for Scarlet ...
Buy a 35mm DOF adapter for my HV20 and a new PC .... or ... wait for Scarlet ...
Buy a 35mm DOF adapter for my HV20 and a new PC .... or ... wait for Scarlet ...

I'm going crazy :(
 
It's interesting that the response in this thread seems to be roughly split between "just get it out there, and put the additional features in the second generation", "get Scarlet out there, but make Epic perfect", and "take your time and make sure you nail it in the first gen". I didn't think it would be quite so even. I think perhaps that people with access to the Red One are afraid of having a less stable product, while people that don't have access to Red One are afraid they'll have to wait another year before they can cast their Bolex or camcorder aside.

While I understand that the technology for the different models go hand-in-hand and that it might sort of make sense to release a wide set of brains with each round (rather than doing Scarlet in one round and Epic in later round, as many people would like to see), I'd suggest that maybe you release only one brain in the first generation, and use what you learn from that process to have a great line-up of mature, second-gen brains (for which you would now have a healthy ecosystem of modules), including a replacement for the first model. You could even offer a trade-up price for the first model, which should be less costly than with the Red One, since you're only replacing the brain.

If you're concerned about containing expectations, you could open it up as a beta program, where all the users are really paying for two brains up front: the beta generation and replacement to the follow-up generation (say, at 1.5x the price). That would limit the number of customers you get, but it should limit it to the customers that do understand what they're getting into (some bugs, not all the features, limited set of available modules and lenses), and just really want to be early adopters (and possibly be involved in giving feedback from the field to Red). Then, rather than trying to fix every problem and deliver features in the firmware, you could let people know that it will be dealt with in the final product, which they've already paid for and they know they'll be trading in for at some point. This way, you can launch your product as a fully mature product in wide distribution, while still getting the benefit of feedback from early adopters, and having the time to put out a mature and comprehensive set of modules and lenses.

Interestingly, I've seen that model used in one other place, albeit in an industry much less fraught with technological and logistical complications: Pragmatic Programmers. There, you can buy a book in beta, and you receive the current PDF version of the book, and then when the book is ready, you get the final PDF as well as a physical copy of the book (they also give incremental updates to the beta version of the book, but that doesn't apply here so much). I'm willing to pay 1.5x the price for that and expect less than perfection for the beta version, since it (a) gets the text in my hands much earlier, (b) allows me to be involved in the feedback process before the book is finalized, and (c) I don't even have the option of being cheap and just buying the beta version of the book, so I know I'll have a finished product in my hands at some point. http://pragprog.com/ They also pay the authors 50% royalties, and allow them to use a subversion repository to submit updates to it—being able to offer these kind of things are what make being a small company great.
 
Justin O'Neill said:
If it is just improvements to the brain then I say get them out as soon as possible. We are expecting to upgrade to new brains eventually so just release the improved ones a year later and we'll just slap 'em in our existing DSMC setups.
Click to expand...
I disagree. If the improvements to the brain are well understood and would take a few extra months but would spare me from having to buy a new brain to get the improvements, then I say let's wait.
 
Stu Mannion said:
At this point adding features is completely unnecessary IMHO.

What is far more important is having a camera more stable and reliable than the R1. Focus on ironing out bugs, not features at this stage. The designs already have more than enough functions for cinema production.
Click to expand...
You don't know what the features are. They may very well aimed at improving stability (e.g., more efficient electronics, better cooling, better diagnostics) rather than the electronic equivalent of a cupholder.
 
Hi Jim/Jarred/everyone at RED,


I am new to this forum although I have been avidly devouring all the latest... extremely excited by the thought of owning one of your cameras when they eventually get the release orders!

With regards to that delicate subject (as that seems to be the main thrust of this particular forum and causing some contention as well as consternation)... it seems to me that you are (re)introducing a manufacturing ethos that has been long overdue and one that I hope will once and for all overthrow the model that has been extant for the past thirty plus years and that has birthed the global economic meltdown we are now witness to - namely that of consumerism. Whilst the aim of manufacturers has been to produce as much as possible with the cheapest possible materials and shortest life-span what you are doing is creating goods that are made to last, with attention to function and ergonomics as opposed to what the current trend is and how to make as much profit as possible. You are true craftsmen, artisans with a pioneering spirit not seen for many years and for this I salute you.

So, with that, all I can say is continue what you are doing as uncompromisingly as you have been and let us all hope that perhaps this may sporn a new age in manufacturing and a model for all businesses to adopt.


Kind Regards,


Jason


PS that is not to say that I am not desperate to get my hands on something right now!
 
Seems to me the best course would be to hammer the competition as soon as possible---focusing efforts on Scarlet. If Canon is truly working on a professional CMOS sensor camera I would think Red could make the biggest impact with Scarlet first. This would reach alot more folks who don't own a R1 yet and are considering, gulp, Canon. As many have said, R1 is out there and there is more than enough life in that for those waiting for Epic. Scarlet could dominate and take over the sub-10,000 market---no question. And that is with the current specs.
 
Jannard said:
The ASIC does lots of stuff... heavy processing with less power (heat), quick startups (less than 2 sec) but is limited to changing things around. We have added other stuff in the brain to provide flexibility. Building a complicated and powerful ASIC is not an easy task.

Jim
Click to expand...

I would rather have less heat (longer battery life!?!) especially in the Scarlet.
 
Jason Barnes said:
Hi Jim/Jarred/everyone at RED,


I am new to this forum although I have been avidly devouring all the latest... extremely excited by the thought of owning one of your cameras when they eventually get the release orders!

With regards to that delicate subject (as that seems to be the main thrust of this particular forum and causing some contention as well as consternation)... it seems to me that you are (re)introducing a manufacturing ethos that has been long overdue and one that I hope will once and for all overthrow the model that has been extant for the past thirty plus years and that has birthed the global economic meltdown we are now witness to - namely that of consumerism. Whilst the aim of manufacturers has been to produce as much as possible with the cheapest possible materials and shortest life-span what you are doing is creating goods that are made to last, with attention to function and ergonomics as opposed to what the current trend is and how to make as much profit as possible. You are true craftsmen, artisans with a pioneering spirit not seen for many years and for this I salute you.

So, with that, all I can say is continue what you are doing as uncompromisingly as you have been and let us all hope that perhaps this may sporn a new age in manufacturing and a model for all businesses to adopt.


Kind Regards,


Jason


PS that is not to say that I am not desperate to get my hands on something right now!
Click to expand...

Welcome to Reduser Jason, and thanks for the kind words.
 
Hold on here, after a dozen pages I realize...why are Scarlet and Epic programs being lumped together?

It seems the Scarlet crowd is wanting whatever you have and it seems the Epic crowd REALLY wants you to take whatever time you need to make Epic rock solid.

So why not approach it that way?
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Hold on here, after a dozen pages I realize...why are Scarlet and Epic programs being lumped together?

It seems the Scarlet crowd is wanting whatever you have and it seems the Epic crowd REALLY wants you to take whatever time you need to make Epic rock solid.

So why not approach it that way?
Click to expand...
Well, I want a fixed Scarlet and I want it done right. No need to hurry if you have something to improve. So nope. I also want my scarlet rock solid which means working. Updates with Features that need Programing are okay. So lets put it out as fast as possible when the Hardware is done 100%. Software can be updated :-)
 
Im not too worried about RED TEAM making bad choices... i trust all this advice on what they should do, has to amuse them at some point. probably irritate them, more so.

but I think the issue/challenge with asics has directly led to a new direction...

and that means to me, that even if the competition has the staff of allah (they have only half the head piece) and as a result... "they are digging in the wrong place!"

ASIC development is EXTREMELY expensive... millions and millions of dollars...
and its very nature, contradicts RED's mantra of obsolescence obsolete (so I am most curious how they will ultimately overcome this)

Jim Jarred. RED Team. Great news! You are NOT publicly traded. you are an emerging company and already have a kick ass camera out there... you can change your mind every week.

so please please ignore these Scarlett desparados and dont release the camera until it has reached something you are proud of owning and releasing. period.

They can all threaten to buy a panasonic or canon... etc... but we all know damn well they will buy a Scarlett when it comes out anyway... whether late this year as you said, or 2010...

but I just want to say that I don't think these sub $5000 or sub $10000 buyers are going to be as forgiving as RED ONE early adopters... their collective expectations are different and, frankly I would wait until the product is solid, and production is ramped
up to fill orders... BEFORE you release anything new.

good things come to those who wait. thats my 1.76 cents adjusted for the stimulus
 
Lets wait....

Lets wait....

Most of us have only had or cameras a few months. Productions are only starting to open up to RED.

I say wait.

The RED one has tons of play left in it.

Why not let the other make the first move and then blow them out of the water.

And give me a little more time to save up the 10k + to go to epic.

Thanks
 
My 2cents: deliver the scarlet on schedule, at least the fixed lens one if possible, giving everyone who can't afford Red One some taste of the power and beauty of Red cameras. Many of them only know Red in their minds and on these forums. But once they actually experience and hold it in their hands, they'll be a lot more believers. I see a lot of people already loosing their faith in Red now, but I keep tell them to hold on. Red will pull thru, you won't be disappointed.

I also agree with the balance concept. The perfect camera delivered in infinite time, or the imperfect camera delivered in finite time? A user posted a link here about the Paradox of Choice.. I can't find it anymore, but I think this is a direct connection to what is happening with Red. The more options, the more choices you give to them, the less happy they'll be. With the ability to have more, to choose more, people will yearn for perfection. The more options you give them, the more they'll want their own personal, "perfect" camera. Not getting that perfection leaves them unsatisfied and unable to realize what's being offered is far closer to their perfect camera than any other company could offer.

just my 2 pesos (in the words of Peter)
 
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