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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Conundrum...

Shawn Nelson said:
Without actually counting, it seems the current Red owners are vastly in favor of "take your time, we're in no hurry" while non Red owners seem to be more "give us whatever you got when time XYZ comes around".
Click to expand...

I agree. For me, the Red one is not an option, I simply cannot afford it. I think that the Red one owners don't mind waiting because they already have a red. for those of us who don't have red's, we have trouble waiting for this revolution.
 
I'm all for taking time on perfecting the Epic. The Red One users have spoken that they can wait for it. Just focus on getting the scarlet shipping so those of us who want to shoot/school ourselves hands-on in preparation for using Epic down the road.

Looking forward to all the new info at any rate. Keep up the hectic paced work.
 
Jim,

I read your post as perhaps thinking out loud? I'm confused as to what specific features are on the table and could conflict with your schedule.

Granted I don't pay to much attention to Scarlet, being an Epic guy: Here is my opinion regarding an around $10,000 value proposition to a current Red owner: I believe you only need to address a few issues to make that proposition. I believe those are:

Boot time
Power Consumption
Frame rates in 4K+ (Full S35 Gate)
Timecode continuity

Everything else is really gravy for me. I'm looking forward to more pixels, higher dynamic range, and plenty of bells an whistles, but those on my list above are the factors that most directly affect my working life with your camera. Address them and the rest can come later.

Back in 2007, prior to release, I came to the conclusion that you were extremely smart in limiting your camera to only shooting one flavor of compressed raw, (when for a long time you had discussed various kinds of scaled formats and etc.) My opinion was actually converted by debate at that time and then strengthened when I began shooting with the camera and working with 4K Redcode Raw.

You forced the post production software industry to follow your lead and slowly but surely they have/are/will.

Certainly Epic has enough horsepower that once again some kind of scaled format is on the table... my feeling is you had it right the first time. One croppable format is for me the essence and simplicity of the Red One design and soon your DSMC concept. To go beyond that is to add complexity that will be an obstacle to the overall success of the camera as a reliable simple photographic tool.

In other words "feature creep" is your enemy. Simplicity a guide.

I hope this is helpful.

IBloom
 
No need to rush out the next generation. Your (RED) blood, sweat, and tears were greatly appreciated with the RED One but now it would be better to wait until things are "in balance." The right combination of features vs schedule, market timing, manufacturing outlooks, etc will come to you - not from agitated or excited customers - but from what makes all around sense.

My vote is to take your time and get it right before burning any ASICs.

aloha,

Keith
 
I have to disagree. The features as they are right now are so good and the price points so reasonable I would only see marginal value improvement. Therefore for me release schedule trumps additional value.

Then again as someone else very insightfully noted I fall into the "don't own a REDOne" category. So I don't own a comparable camera right now.
 
It seems to me that big surprises (negative) are what drive people crazy. We are a fairly open book and that is mostly good news. We tell you what we are thinking and listen to what you are thinking. Not all of you share the same opinion... nor does everyone at RED. That's why this is a benevolent dictatorship.

There is no way to make everyone happy with features, prices and delivery dates. We are trying to produce the best packages we can for the best prices and ship the quickest we can without bugs. That all sounds much easier than it really is. We ask for your understanding how difficult the trick is we are trying to pull off, then your patience if something doesn't go exactly as planned. We truly are all in this together, more than any business model I have ever seen. I like it.

Jim
 
Take your time. Top of 2010 would be fine. Still plenty of time to get mileage out of Red One and I would want Epic to be as polished as it could possibly be IMHO. Red is still way ahead in many aspects.
 
Getting Scarlet out of the door should be your number one priority. People that don't own RED Ones probably don't own them because of the cost. The RED One is already a highly capable cinema camera. The Epic is an extension of that, at a much higher price point. You don't hear current RED One owners stressing a time table because they are satisfied right now.

Get the Scarlet out ASAP; can we really complain for you add more features at its price point? No. Price point and availability are key. You can seriously destroy the sub-$10,000 prosumer market with it.

Take your time with the Epic. Anyone who has the cash for that thing can surely wait or continue shooting with a RED One.
 
Jannard said:
We are a fairly open book
Click to expand...

Hmm...maybe more like a dirty magazine behind the counter that has wrapping over the cover. :-)

I might be the only one here, but I'm no fan of these teases like "you won't believe what we have coming" and then no real information. I know it's well intended, but I read for 30 minutes and I have no real information. I do LOVE, however, when you post real information or photos or mock-ups...so don't get me wrong. It's just in this "information age" we're in, there is only so much time to read all this stuff. There is SO much information pollution these days...:-)

My $.02. Oh, and I agree 100% with what Ian said. I'm a big fan of Apple, as are many here. Keep it simple. Do something incredibly well, rather than a bunch of things decently. Feature creep is a real deal and can hurt, not help, though intentions are golden.
 
Jim, end of Summer. Excelent. This is what I wanted to hear. My wallet is sealed untill then (on camera purchase).

I'm on the S35 Scarlet bandwagon. And regarding the "we are all in this together", you are right. If I'm to choose between a Canon and a Red with similar features, I would personally choose Red, because somehow I feel involved in the making of this camera. This is a camera built between the direct interchange of the consumer and the manufacturer. Kudos to you guys, Red team!
 
What makes Red, Red?

1. Thinking out of the box
2. Modern business models
3. Interacting with customer base
4. Innovative products and design
5. Not afraid to change

I love all of those things about Red. The Red One symbolizes a break from the norm. It is not a perfect camera, but it symbolizes a new way of doing things.

After going through the journey with Red One, Jim and his team have a wealth of knowledge they can lean on in making the next gen cameras all of what I mentioned above, but also reach a new level of maturity in terms of stability and delivery.

There will always be competition. If companies want to stay in business, they will have to compete. I would flat out be amazed if Canon didn't respond to Scarlet. How could they not? Scarlet has the potential to put a big dent in that segment of the market. But, Red will never be able to build a camera that pleases everyone. I believe they have to depend on their gut feelings, and implement the features they deem important based on a lot of feedback from professional shooters and POST professionals. Technology improves everyday practically. The newest, greatest thing is always around the corner. For Epic and Scarlet, I would like to see an approach that utilizes the best of what is available to Red at this time with a dedication to making these cameras stable, well crafted machines with feature sets that serve the majority of users. I'd also like to see a commitment to the post community with wide integration amongst as many post tools as possible.

What Red has done up to this point is nothing short of amazing. What they do from here on out I expect will be to set that bar even higher. I would imagine that this is what keeps Jim up at night. I'm sure he wants to take the foundation they have built and not settle but keep going, keep pushing the boundaries. That's why things never seem to be locked in and why everything is subject to change. To be successful is to never sleep on your success. What we can hope comes from this is a new generation of cameras that show Red's growth as a company.

As a community, I think we need to also strive to push for the best, to give them suggestions and insight from the enduser perspective. But I also think we need to keep our expectations somewhat realistic. It's a delicate balance.

See you all in Vegas!
 
I would agree that it's worth the wait for a polished end product-especially in this economy. 2010 would not be a long wait.

thanks,


pierre robichaud
 
Isn't part of the point of the modularity of the system that upgrading isn't as bad as it would be with whole cameras? If so, then I would recommend locking down a solid set of features as early as possible and start releasing brains with those features and the Mysterium-X sensor, and then put into a follow-up Monstro version the features that you think are important but would have pushed the release date more than a couple months, and didn't prevent the original generation from being fully professional products.

If you have a solid first-gen brain, with a more fully-featured, second-gen brain available 12-15 months later, then that will really test the upgradeability of the camera, which, more than anything, will depend on how well you've defined the interaction between the brains and the modules. What will motivate people about Red's new system more than having their first successful experience buying a new brain and being able to use it with all the modules they've already purchased? You can always add new features to brains in future generations, but the sooner you can get a quality product into the hands of pro, student, and hobbyist filmmakers, the more solidly you can establish Red's modular system as the optimal paradigm for video cameras. There are no good video cameras out there in the <$10k range, but there will be eventually, and you won't have such a clear field to play in for long.

If you release a "good-enough" camera soon, people will be confident in investing in modules and lenses, even if the current setup doesn't have all the features they'd like, knowing that they'll be able to upgrade the brain in the not-too-distant future

With all of that said, if we're talking about launching on schedule at the expense of the reliability of the initial products or the initial modules' capacity to take full advantage of the next generation of brains, then I'd say take the time it requires to get that right.
 
I think most of us are willing to wait until it is done right. I know that my compulsion is to get what I want as fast as I can, but afterwards, I have tended to have buyer's remorse.

The older I get, the more frugal I am with my money. I know that you will get it right, Jim, and that there will be absolutely no buyer's remorse when my Scarlet gets here. When I want a new camera, I will just get a new brain.

It's only a brain! :P

We are on this train till the end. Just keep working hard, and we will be here to reward you with our $$ and our films. :} Thanks for everything!
 
I think all of this is a bit of sticky situation. On one hand, we all want something right away...on the other we don't want to compromise the end product just to have it sooner.

Amusingly though, I think you likely could have released any of the various revisions to the DSMC program on schedule instead of changing them and bumping the delivery dates and most people would have been pleased.

It would seem to me that you guys are approaching the line of massively diminishing returns on new features to this generation of brains. At some point you just have to lock it down and get it out the door. There is plenty of time for you guys to further mature the DSMC program after the second gen RED cameras ship.

The iPhone is a good parallel IMO. The G1 handset and OS were really impressive and revolutionary. The G2 handset was better in pretty much everyway and the G2 OS was significantly better. Now we are approaching the G3 handset and OS (And I should note, OS 3.0 is absolutely fantastic) and Apple is finally getting to the point of putting out the device they originally set out to do. Certainly they will continue to improve both the OS and Handset...but the list of "missing" stuff has been cut to the nub.

I expect that the G2 RED cams will be a significant step in the right direction and 2-3 years from now when you release the G3 cams (or I guess G2 brains ;) ) you will probably be putting out the real camera you envisioned all those years ago.

Exciting times these are, and I suspect you'll ultimately choose the right path for the camera system, your company, and your customers (of which I hope to be sooner rather than later :))
 
Those who suggest releasing Scarlet on schedule seem to be on to something. Prospective Epic buyers are currently potential One buyers, while prospective Scarlet buyers are currently potential Canon buyers.

With ibloom and Kevin Wild I encourage simplicity and elegance. Consumer electronics companies have almost made "feature" a revolting word. There is a difference, I think, between an addition that would make the camera a better tool and one that would make it a niftier gadget. Steer to the side of Tool, away from Gadgetry, and you won't waste your time or curse yourself with having to support buggy and complex features of little value to professional shooters.
 
Please take your time and get it right. I'm having wingnut nightmares already.

It seems to me that the only people desperate for something NOW are the "fixed lens Scarlet" crew; namely the folks who'd like a starter camera for less $$$. Please do not let last year's clamor from the Scarlet hopefuls bias your current projections. Scarlet was a different program then, and a largely imaginary one at that, fueled by speculation and online fantasy. That's changed.

Humbly, I think this "$3000 and under" market is a minor part of your overall Red program. Perhaps you could push the "fixed lens Scarlet" to the head of your schedule, and then take your time to deliver the quality and dependability that the Red Pro folks seek and need.

I'm growing an ulser with the thought that you are going to give your ingenious modular components the famous wingnut treatment. Christ, I feel a seizure coming on. I mean no offense when i say that there is a good reason that folks are flocking to ET and other quality third party vendors. I've already had to replace about half of the accessories that I bought from Red, simply because they break, slip, are not ergonomic, and have all the appearance of a rush job.

Please, please, take your time, think, test, test again, wait a month just to piss us off, test, have a drink, test some more, etc. I know that many other camera manufactures have pre-release beta periods that last years in some cases.
 
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