Controlled Burn of Car -- Need Some Help

[Matt Bowden]

Hey Guys, not sure of where to put this so if this isn't the right area let me know. I'm working on an upcoming short film in which I will need to do a controlled burn of a car with an actor "relatively close." He will be passed out on the ground. I'm wondering if anyone else has done this before LEGALLY. I am going to get in touch with my local fire department and see what they will need in order to do this. We are going to be getting the van from a junk yard (not working van) and have it towed to our location. Im thinking I will need to have all of the engine, gas tank and gas lines removed for safety wouldn't you think? Who would I need to contact to clean up the wreck afterwards.

Any and all help on this is greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks
Matt B.

 

[Daniel P Rudin]

As being a licensed Pyrotechnician over here, i strongly suggest to ask a licensed Pyrotech to do it for you..
even shock absorbers fly pretty far if you dont know what you are dong.. especially if you have people in proximity..
not even talking about insurance if something happens..

best regards
Daniel

 

[Matt Bowden]

Daniel, thanks for the reply. This is a low budget short, just under $10k. That includes camera/lighting rental. What would cost be like for something like that if I hired a pyrotecnician? Simple slow burn, no explosions. I need to figure out what my best options are for budget. Obviously I don't have a hollywood budget so i need to adjust accordingly. A fake computer graphics burn with stock footage is out of the question. Never can seem to make it look real so I'd like to if at all possible find the safest, legal and least expensive method to get what I need live.

 

[Nick Gardner]

You need a guy who knows what he's doing. First of all, you don't want to actually burn the car. You want the car rigged so that it's on fire, and then when you cut, you can turn it off, then go again. Way safer, you get better shots because you can do exactly what you want, and you can do as many takes as you want. You should do fire right, burn wards suck.

Nick

 

[PatrickW]

Test it without people nearby first...

 

[Matt Bowden]

Nick, It's only one scene. Night with actor passed out nearby. No acting involved. More like.....set lights, camera, roll, burn. That's it. Locked down one shot actor on ground car burning.

But I do need the burned/charred car for a different, day after scene.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I believe anything involving Pyro/fx requires $5,000,000 in insurance.

 

[paulherrin]

okay, first off - this all gets a lot simpler if you can composite the guy in.

i.e. shoot the car on fire, let it burn (and pick the best bit) then shoot the guy on the ground, lit by either a regular fire and/or some flickerboxes

in any case pyrotechnics and/or the fire department are your friend. i volunteer, and most guys would climb over each other to play with a car fire. if you want to come down south and shoot it, i'm sure we could help you out.

i don't know a lot about the legal and insurance issues in this case, but at the very least you'll probably have to get some permits through the fire/police department and have a crew there monitoring it. if you can find a volunteer department, they would probably be more apt to help you out. you would definitely probably have to pay some guys to be there otherwise (and you might anyways). i would go talk to a local fire chief or two and/or a pyrotechnic.

let me know if you have any questions about any of that. you may have to be flexible about having the actor in there vs. compositing - i could see there being safety concerns come up, but it may depend. just be prepared to be flexible if necessary. also remember it can get extremely warm closeby, and you really shouldn't be close enough to get hot without full protection. if the fire was completely controlled via pyrotechnics it wouldn't be quite as big of a deal, but as you seem to be on a budget and just want to set the thing on fire and go, you'll have to adapt to prioritize safety. keep in mind, there are a lot of random things in vehicles that react very violently in a burn - the whole thing will have to be looked over and stripped out by somebody who knows what they're doing. i would consult them before choosing a vehicle as well, they usually know about different manufacturers and models that are more "safe" to burn.

 

[Daniel P Rudin]

@Matt,
there are multiple ways to do it.. propane is one way (turn it on and off as needed) but is lots of work to do -> expensive and hard to look realistic ;-)
i dont know what Pyrotechnics cost over the ocean, but with the propper assurance etc, i think it would blow your budget for normal rates.. maybe someone needs a demoreel ;-)

if you have the place where your are allowed to burn a car, and fire department is there, (dont forget to get all motoroil etc out, the environment thanks), have removed everything that can explode (to remove a airbag you have to be a licensed mechanic) and fill the gas tank with water ;-) and have everyone 50meters away..
put a dummy there and cut to the actor or key him in the scene in post..

then burn the thing..

 

[Jason Comparetto]

I like Paul's idea

 

[Antony M]

You need a guy who knows what he's doing. First of all, you don't want to actually burn the car. You want the car rigged so that it's on fire, and then when you cut, you can turn it off, then go again. Way safer, you get better shots because you can do exactly what you want, and you can do as many takes as you want. You should do fire right, burn wards suck.

Nick

I agree about having someone who knows what they are doing.
I agree that ending up in a burn ward would be bad.

But I totally disagree about not burning the car.
Whenever I see films or TV shows, it is so painfully obvious when the house or car is not actually on fire and that it is gas burning that it ruins the shot.

 

[Rob Gardner]

The idea of flame bars and propane makes a lot of sense. I think its all about control and safety. If you control where the flames are and how big they are and just how they look before you shoot it, you can set the shot just as you want it, but if you count on a lot of things that are only going to happen once, and there is a mistake ("uh, was I supposed to roll on that one?") it can be painful.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Whenever I see films or TV shows, it is so painfully obvious when the house or car is not actually on fire and that it is gas burning that it ruins the shot.

Those guys are doing it wrong ;-) Just sticking flame bars in the window ain't gonna do it. Like I said, you need a good pyro guy. There are about a dozen reasons why actually burning a car is a bad idea. You can burn stuff in a car, you can burn a car like thing, there are a lot of ways to do it, but just sparking up an old buick isn't the way to go ;-)

Nick

 

[Brian Iannone]

I'd like to see this video when you're done. =D

 

[Matt Bowden]

Thanks guys for all of the responses. We are planning on (hoping) to rent a scarlet to shoot with. So as long as we light properly I don't necessarily see an issue with adding the actor in post. We'll just need to make sure the shots are consistent. But it's a fairly easy effect to do in After Effects. We could shoot him on the ground before the burn. Do some sort of light effect on him. Like the light from the flames. Then move him...burn the car...connect in post. Maybe I can shoot the scene in a way where the actor isn't as close as he seems. Move him WAY away then get the camera far enough away fro the actor where the car is actually out of focus and you cant really tell the distance btw the two.

I def agree that the propane idea isnt for me. We are getting an emptied out old dodge caravan that doesnt run from the junkyard specifically so we can burn the HELL out of it. We have another old but working version of the van we are borrowing to do interior shots. I went out this afternoon and found some privately owned areas that might work that we wouldn't need a permit to shoot at, just owner permission. But we will still need some help from the Fire Department. I have some e-mails out now to some people.

OH, By the way...we dont need an expolsion....just fire. slow burning and large. All for like 10 seconds hahahaha...welcome to filmmaking.

Some of the other people on the project are like...."can't we just re-write something in less difficult?" Absolutely not says I!!!!!

ROLL IT----and-----FIRE!!!!!!!!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I believe anything involving Pyro/fx requires $5,000,000 in insurance.

This varies by location, if there are unionized or standard contracts involved, etc... That said, I wouldn't handle any pyro effects without at least that much per-incident coverage on hand to begin with. Liability insurance is usually rather cheap to get started, but the cost can go up fairly quick, depending on *what* you are covering. If you're doing high-risk stuff like playing with combustibles, setting things on fire, etc.. the cost goes up.

I realize it's a low-budget shoot, but there are always ways to pull this type of shot together. Talk with your local fire department -- they usually have access to cars that they have burned or have burned. Perhaps you can work out a deal where you can get a shot of the vehicle burning. Either locked-off or with repeatable motion. And then get the same shot of someone on the ground in front of the burned. Comp the two shots together. Most fire departments do occasional training of this type, burning junk vehicles and whatnot, pulling mannequins out of them, that sort of thing. Maybe it will work out and then you can have access to the charred remains of the vehicle afterward. Perhaps you can barter a deal to minimize or eliminate out of pocket expenses on your end. Something like shooting some video of these training exercises for them so they can review, who knows.

If not the fire department, then talk with a licensed pyrotech in your area. You may be able to work something out. I wouldn't recommend torching a car on your own. There's a lot of prep work and it can be surprising what things might blow up or fly off a car while it's burning. Even in most Hollywood budget films, such effects are mostly all still rigged where no one is actually burning up a car for the first time. The prepping of a car to be burned can be time consuming and expensive and will account for a significant portion of cost. Perhaps you can avoid these expenses by starting with a stripped-down junker without the engine, gas tank, etc.. Anything on the car that is sealed off or can build up pressure when heated is a risk. I saw shock absorbers mentioned above, but fluid lines, oil pan, and more are all a hazard in one way or another.

Getting access to a charred vehicle shouldn't prove too difficult. Perhaps you can do the burning version of it in the background in post by comping in fire footage your source from elsewhere. And could also be easier on the budget and insurance costs.

 

[Matt Bowden]

I did hear back from the fire department and they are excited. Said they would get me a firetruck to be at the set for free as long as they get to do a practice run on the car after we're done shooting. We are shootin' on private property...no permits. One of the reasons living in a small town is great.

As far as the actor is concerned..we going to lock the camera down...shoot the actor with the car in the shot (pre-burn) and do some lighting techniques to look like light coming off the fire. Then move the actor...fire the car from a safe distance, behind the fire truck with masks on....then compose the shots together. Thats the plan. Now, I dont think my computer is going to like me trying to work with 4k in after effects! haha.I have a new macbook pro i7 quad core with 8gb ram..but not sure if even that's enough.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Do it properly and safely or don't do it or all (or do it in post.) Don't light a real car on fire if you are not properly licensed and don't have a fire marshall on hand.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Just a heads up, if this is night time, you are going to need some serious firepower to light your foreground so that you have enough stop so the fire isn't just total burn out. This was shot at about a T16 with a 10k about ten feet away from the model, and as you can see, the hottest parts of the flames still burned out. Red MX.

The second shot is another example of how bright fire is and it's cool ;-) (lighting a bonfire with a 12 gauge round of dragons breath)

 

[Matt Bowden]

David the fire department will be there to supervise and rig the car. I am just filming.

Nick, thanks for the heads up. Im still trying to figure out how I want to light it. As I mentioned before the person will be shot separately and added in post. We only really need to see his outlne on the ground. Not really a perfectly lit just there.