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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Concert on RED? Possible??

J

jon erwin

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One thing I'm trying to do is convince some of the labels to let me shoot a live concert entirely on RED. We just did a live concert in Florida and I paid about $20K for the truck alone.

So I thought I would open this up for discussion. What would it take to do 10 camera RED concert? (1 jib, stedicam, 2 fixed w/ long lenses, 2 dolly, 4 handheld) Thoughts?
 
I will volunteer my gear and RED camera if it is a Rush concert!!!! ha he...

All kidding aside, I would love to help out if you are doing this in the Florida area. Where in Florida did you shoot the last concert.
 
You know, this was one of the things I have wondered about from the outset. I don't have a RED (though I plan to purchase at some point).

My thoughts and some of the implications of using RED:

I'm thinking that there would be limited use of cinema like lenses and would have to be setup in a ENG style for capturing.

It would (for some of the shooters) need to be steady cam and shoulder braced.

I would prefer to sync timecode and do editing in post rather than try to hook REDs up to a truck (if that were possible).

What would be the impact of shooting RED (with the Rolling Shutter effect) and the production lighting of a concert. Strobes, Flood lights and other visual effects.

As I recall some more of my thoughts I will add to this thread.

I'm definitely interest in seeing such a production.
 
I'm a bit confused... it this live show to DVD or live show for live TV?

Yeah, the glass would be quite a problem. I guess you could do with a couple cameras on primes and maybe one or two with the RED 18-50, but that's not great. Finding zoom glass with good enough coverage (18-50 is not enough) for something like 4-7 cameras would be both a pain and very costly.

I think if you're not going tethered, shooting 2k on hard drives and jam syncing the cameras should be good enough.

Shooting 4k would be interesting (read suicidal)... but you could recoup your costs by selling training to 10 trainee ACs pulling focus for a couple hours non-stop. Call it boot camp!

Geee, at 2k you could shoot something like three and a half hours of the show at 75fps!

I wouldn't go as far as saying going red for such a thing would be an ideal scenario... but I'd be one fun ride. :biggrin:

EDIT: I agree with Keith tough, rolling shutter would be quite obvious here.
 
John

The Red's really are not set up for live TV..In theory you could take the HD-SDI out into a recording device via Fiber.. But without seeing the HD-SDI output it's difficult to say, we would need to test it.

The main issue would be the lack of real-time control for iris and paint.

A Red concert recorded for Post would be fantastic and we could probably do a quick-turnaround for a pay per view event, or theatrical release similar to the U2 3D release.

I'm a technical producer and have the ability to get very good truck pricing,
so shoot me a PM if you need help putting together your next concert/event.

Dave
 
I've mentioned this before, but I think Red would be an amazing camera for concerts as the prce point even with the B4 adaptor is significantly below that of any HD studio rig.

Of course, Iris and paint are the main issues. If you can't control these remotely, you're pretty much hosed out of the gate.

I'd LOVE to see red or somebody make a CCU like device (bluetooth, USB, or wired) that would control the color on the outputs, as well as controlling the iris via an attached gear on the lens. In post you could throw away all the metadata and dial in the color as much as you like.

Record the whole shot to red drives and you not only have a pristine digital master for each camera (ISO decks are expensive!) but you have a pathway to very speedy multicam edit turnaround.

Just a thought, Mr. Jannard
 
I do a ton of concerts, and plan to do one with Reds the next time it presents itself.

Because I can't seem to do one in XDCAM HD for less than $50-$60K (post edit, audio off my budget), I would assume one with Red would need at least $70-80K since each cam now needs expensive lenses, an (good!) AC for each camera, and a crapload of hard drives for backups.
 
carl said:
I
Of course, Iris and paint are the main issues. If you can't control these remotely, you're pretty much hosed out of the gate.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Before there Varicams and F900s, there were quite a few concerts shot on 16 and 35.

Shooting multicamera on Red is a multicamera film shoot, not a switched video shoot. Red wasn't designed in the slightest for such a thing. It's a post edit/color correct deal.
 
carl said:
I've mentioned this before, but I think Red would be an amazing camera for concerts as the prce point even with the B4 adaptor is significantly below that of any HD studio rig.

Of course, Iris and paint are the main issues. If you can't control these remotely, you're pretty much hosed out of the gate.

I'd LOVE to see red or somebody make a CCU like device (bluetooth, USB, or wired) that would control the color on the outputs, as well as controlling the iris via an attached gear on the lens. In post you could throw away all the metadata and dial in the color as much as you like.

Record the whole shot to red drives and you not only have a pristine digital master for each camera (ISO decks are expensive!) but you have a pathway to very speedy multicam edit turnaround.

Just a thought, Mr. Jannard
Click to expand...

Carl,

The CCU,( Camera control unit) controls the video boards in the camera, and the RED One does not have Video processing boards...one of the reasons for the affordable price.

Dave
 
Shooting concerts on 35mm has been done, not only once. So, no reason not to shoot a concert with RED in 4K. I've never done a full concert in 35mm but in S16mm.

Most show light will give you around f5.6 at ASA 320, plenty of light. It's not very hard to rent reasonable lenses. You could use one camera on a tripod with a 25-250. Another would also carry a 1-10 or even an Optimo on sticks and a third one handheld/steadicam with a short zoom either RED, Angenieux, Zeiss or Cooke. A fourth camera could be on a crane, also a short zoom. Only for the moving cameras are AC needed.

All cameras get sync with a TC-slate in the beginning and maybe in the end aswell. The soundrecorder feeds the clock of the TC-slate. Since with film every 10minutes cameras have to be reloaded every camera got its own TC-slate. Cameras start shooting with 1 minute offset. If you record to a REDRaid you don't need that, for safety it's better to have it, I suppose.

Turnaround time will be long. Debayering of 4x approx. 60+ min. takes some time. You don't want to do offline/online in the current state. After the edit finishing needs also some time, the whole show has to be colour corrected.

If the sujet fits, why not?

Hans
 
I am planning a three camera concert shoot in MAY of this year. My attitude is whatever I shoot on ANY other camera I WILL SHOOT ON RED.

I want to use this camera system in everything I do because I believe that it is a system that is adaptable to any situation.

(the disclaimer is hidden camera stuff, completely impractical situations (whatever they may be), in my professional life I want to use it for every image I capture)

My RED includes documentary.

David
 
Yeah guys. This would not be live. The one we worked on in Florida is for a DVD that will be released in a few months. Plenty of time for post. We did a line cut, but all the cameras were running to tape as well. We pretty much build the show in post.

So my idea would be to shoot 4K for 35mm DOF. (I like that look) typically, the main band's set is around 90 min. - 2 hours. So if each cam shot to two RED drives we should be good, right?

Probably wouldn't run lines to a truck, we'd just go over responsibilities before the show and get what we get. We'd film two shows probably.

We wouldn't need to paint the cameras live because of the raw format. Each operator would just need to ride his own iris. Lenses would be the biggest issue. We'd need zooms. Some of them would need to be pretty long...

As for post, we'd spend a week or two doing a light REDCine grade and spitting everything out to 1080p prores. Then it would go into editorial. Thoughts?
 
jon erwin said:
Yeah guys. This would not be live. The one we worked on in Florida is for a DVD that will be released in a few months. Plenty of time for post. We did a line cut, but all the cameras were running to tape as well. We pretty much build the show in post.

So my idea would be to shoot 4K for 35mm DOF. (I like that look) typically, the main band's set is around 90 min. - 2 hours. So if each cam shot to two RED drives we should be good, right?

Probably wouldn't run lines to a truck, we'd just go over responsibilities before the show and get what we get. We'd film two shows probably.

We wouldn't need to paint the cameras live because of the raw format. Each operator would just need to ride his own iris. Lenses would be the biggest issue. We'd need zooms. Some of them would need to be pretty long...

As for post, we'd spend a week or two doing a light REDCine grade and spitting everything out to 1080p prores. Then it would go into editorial. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Good to have time in post. Colour grading 90 min. can take a day, two or three.

You dont't need a truck. You need bright cameramen who know what they are doing, better to get some with a significant film record. Get TC-slates for every camera and an DIT as well, they should communicate about roll-outs, reloads. This is important, because reloading two or more cameras at one time is not a clever idea... Also moving cameras need a focus puller. Set the Iris to all cameras even, except the longshot, often opening aperture half a stop has been not a bad idea, at least with film.

The longest zoom I know that holds a f4 troughout the entire range is the big Optimo with 290mm longest focal lenghts, not very long compared to that what people are used to when shooting 2/3" video. Get the camera closer to the subject.

Hans
 
jon erwin said:
Each operator would just need to ride his own iris. Lenses would be the biggest issue. We'd need zooms. Some of them would need to be pretty long...
Click to expand...

Every concert I have worked on (on film) we have taped off the iris at about 1/2 to 1 stop over the base reading and never touched it again during the shoot. In a Raw workflow this would work as well.

Long zoom shots are definitely the most boring shots in concert coverage - they are the closest to what people see from their seats and thus offer no improvement over simply going to the concert. You want to get right in there and show people stuff they can't see from their seats.

I recommend using 35mm lenses and hiring very very good ACs. Concerts are challenging! If you have the money a Technocrane is a must for cool shots.

Noise cancelling headsets for all (including dolly, operators and focus) and video feeds for the director are a must. Use the warm-up act as a rehearsal, but clear it with their management first and make sure they know you are not rolling footage of them!

High-end concert shoots often schedule an additional performance without an audience where they can have more control over lighting and also be right up on stage for closeups.

To see how the best in the business shoot concerts, try to find some DVDs produced by Done and Dusted - http://www.doneanddusted.com/ - I have worked with them and their system blew me away!
 
If you'd like to see a slightly different approach (from the Done & DUsted style), I really dig Danny Clinch's concert videos. I think he's done Guster, Ben Harper, and Jack Johnson among others.. He also takes some great stills

http://dannyclinch.com/
 
U2 Chicago Vertigo is the best one I've ever seen. Hamish Hamilton rocks!

The one we just did we used 9 cameras. Recorded the show in 24p. 2 jibs. 1 stedicam. 1 dolley. 2 hard. 3 handhelds. We also did a 4 camera eng shoot of a prior show and mixed it all in. Turning out great...
 
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