Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

concerned director with red questions

V

veebis

New member
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I'm gearing up to do a feature in August and was planning to shoot using something like the Sony EX1. We now have access to a Red One, but I am concerned about this potentially raising costs, and wanted to take my concerns straight to the source. Thanks in advance for whatever answers anyone wants to offer!

* Mobility: How "hand-holdable" is the Red 1? Really? I'm envisioning a LOT of hand-held for this particular pic and want to make sure it's practical (in summer heat).

* Lighting: I understand that the larger sensor requires more light than typical HD... How much more? We want to keep lighting requirements to a minimum.

* Focus: I have been warned (and warned) about focus-pulling. Again, the fat sensor/shallow DOF raising requirements.

* Lenses: We're hoping to hook up with a DP who has his own pro glass, but failing that, how is the stock R1 lens? Will we be able to get the value of R1 shooting (shallow DOF, etc.) with the basic kit?
 
Hi
Think of the Red as shooting 35mm, you need good light, good glass, and a good team. The R1 primes and zooms are very nice. Or rent Ultra Primes from a house, again this is normal 35mm glass. As to light, you have a sweet spot at 320 iso, I have pushed to 600 with no big problems. But good lighting skills are a must. As to portability, it is up to you, I am using mine mainly in Afghanistan right now shooting Doc work, allot of handheld work from some of the strangest locations and vehicles from choppers to humvees and never had a problem. Have also shot normal stuff on my big conner head, it all works, just portable you need to lighten up the rig as much as you can. I am down to about 22lbs for what I need with the batteries on a belt along with the Ram Drive carried in my vest.

Good luck
Ron
 
Hi,

I agree with Ronald;

* Portability is not a problem, I just shot an 18 day all-handheld feature with two units with no problems. Your operator should have some muscles though. I had the battery and RED-ram on camera with the Mantis shoulderpad. With a little testing we found a stable configuration with good balance.

* I was amazed with the sensitivity of the Red. I lit some hallway scenes with just available fluororescent lighting and even with my standard speed Zeiss T2.1 lenses I did not have to underexpose. You need to be ware of shooting too low-key though, you will get grain (which you can solve in post to certain extend).

* Yes, focus is critical. It's 35mm DOF and beyond. By that I mean that - to my opinion - RED is less forgiving if your focus is not on the dot. That's one of the reasons I used the (cheaper to rent) T2.1 zeiss lenses and shot most of the film on f2.8 or higher. You can consider to shoot 3K or even 2K if you want the DOF to be easier on the Focuspuller.

* I have not used the R1 lenses yet, but I am hearing good testing results of collegues. It seems that the lenses being ready for 5K have a lot of sharpness to the edges. You can consider testing cheaper lenses like the Zeiss 2.1's.

* I think that the bigger issue for you would be the difference between handling data with a EX-3 or RED one. Shooting with a RED results in a lot of data that has to be stored, duplicated and rendered. You should ask your post-production house for the difference in costs.

But - last but not least - the main argument shooting RED over an EX-3 is the look: your material will look like "film": DOF, latitude, color.
Something that is (more) difficult to achieve with an EX-3.

Cheers,
Joost
 
veebis said:
* Lenses: We're hoping to hook up with a DP who has his own pro glass, but failing that, how is the stock R1 lens? Will we be able to get the value of R1 shooting (shallow DOF, etc.) with the basic kit?
Click to expand...

There isn't a stock lens, as such. The RED lenses are great, if youre lucky enough to get them thrown into a rental package. As long as youre shooting on PL lenses, or 35mm SLRs then youll get the option to shoot with a shallow DoF.
 
Herring said:
Hi,
* Yes, focus is critical. It's 35mm DOF and beyond. By that I mean that - to my opinion - RED is less forgiving if your focus is not on the dot. That's one of the reasons I used the (cheaper to rent) T2.1 zeiss lenses and shot most of the film on f2.8 or higher. You can consider to shoot 3K or even 2K if you want the DOF to be easier on the Focuspuller.
Click to expand...

Uhhh, just because you switch to 3k or 2k doesn't mean that it suddenly gets easier to pull focus. You are still using 35mm optics. If you are out of focus on a 25mm lens at 4k, then you'll still be out of focus at 2k on the same lens. Cropping the sensors doesn't change optical physics.

Matthew
 
Ofcourse the optical physics do not change.
But choice of lenses does.
If you shoot 2K you use wider lenses to get the same angle of view.
For instance, if you use a 50mm for a closeup on 4K, with 2K you would use a 25mm (approx): the angle of view is (approx) 25 degrees.
Ergo you have more DOF on 2K if you want the same angle of view.

Joost
 
I might like to help clear up a couple of your preconceived notions about sensor size.

Sensor size and and sensitivity are not necessarily linked. However it is typical for cameras with larger sensors to show specs that appear more sensitive, not less.

As Matthew was saying the DOF is more related to optics than the size of the sensor. If you can use 35mm glass then you can achieve 35mm DOF. 35mm glass that opens up to 2.8 or less will give you a very shallow focal plane, and that is a target that can be hard to hit and maintain, particularly when the subject and / or camera is moving.
 
FYI, it IS in fact VERY heavy. Make sure your camera op is in good shape and a trooper. Many are, but if he isn't he will cry and ruin your days.

You will need more light not because of the sensor being less sensitive, but only if you want to close down for deeper DoF. Red is MORE sensitive if anything once paired up with a good colorist.
 
Herring said:
Ofcourse the optical physics do not change.
But choice of lenses does.
If you shoot 2K you use wider lenses to get the same angle of view.
For instance, if you use a 50mm for a closeup on 4K, with 2K you would use a 25mm (approx): the angle of view is (approx) 25 degrees.
Ergo you have more DOF on 2K if you want the same angle of view.
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying, but if you base your decision making on that logic you end up with the tail wagging the dog. The correct way to manipulate DOF is with camera position and iris, not by changing lens and resolution. If I were shooting a close up of a human face, a 25mm would not be my lens of choice. Longer focal lengths are more flattering to a face, so I would be inclined to reach for a 50 or higher, and place my camera based upon that, if possible. Of course, if the director specifically wanted a 25 or less, I'd have to assume the intent was for a comic or intentionally awkward look.
 
I agree that it is very heavy. If you are comparing it with a EX1 than be prepared for a very different working style. Forget about quickly grabbing the camera to see how it looks from that angle - you have to plan your shots ahead. You need a camera team that gets the camera on and off the operators shoulder for each shot, you need at least two assistants to change a lens, get it on a tripod, move it to a new set-up and so on. And if you do use support you need heavy support. Heavy tripods, cranes, dollies, etc.
 
sander kamp said:
I agree that it is very heavy. If you are comparing it with a EX1 than be prepared for a very different working style.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If you have only worked with Pro-Sumer cameras to date make sure you get your hands on a Red One yourself so that you can feel the difference and understand how to work with it. It is very much a 35-mm camera.
 
Thanks/steadicam?

Thanks/steadicam?

Thanks so much for all the xlnt input.

I think mobility/lack of is the one factor weighing the heaviest -- ha, see what I did there? -- on me so far. With the time/$ constraints, it's certainly a tough call.

Any thoughts on using a steadicam to maintain mobility/save time on setups?
Would it be realistic to plan for semi-"run-n-gun"-style shooting with the Red 1 on a steadicam rig? Tethering is not a problem; all scenes are very contained.
TIA...
 
veebis said:
I think mobility/lack of is the one factor weighing the heaviest -- ha, see what I did there? -- on me so far. With the time/$ constraints, it's certainly a tough call.
Click to expand...

Handheld's not been an issue unless your op is just a whiner. In October we did a 16 day shoot in the woods where the DP/Op was a 100 pound girl who did mostly handheld. She was fine. Last month we did a 30 day shoot where the DP was a 125 pound girl who did mostly handheld. She was fine as well.

It's heavy, but no heavier than a lot of film cameras I've worked with. It's most definitely workable. I would recommend a shoulder pad or the mantis handheld rig though if you can get hold of one.
 
Steadicam... breaks ure back. Its tougher to shoot with. I recommend getting one of them rigs where you can balance your camera using your back and hips and have your camera much lighter on you.

A backpack is lighter on the back than it is on the shoulder. those rigs kinda use the same ideaology... i don't remember their name though.

I shot a couple of shorts and commercials... i do few hand-held shots... they are such a bitch man.. i am also a big fat chunk of fat... if ure guy isnt atleast well built to carry a 9kg camera around for 8 hours straight.. then he will really find it tough to shoot.

1 thing you can do to keep it light is remove everything from the camera. I once took off the drive, the battery... and the baseplate... and everything pretty much.. even the mattebox (I was shooting at night mostly and I wanted a lot of flaring). I started shooting with Nikon Lenses, now I'm using the birger mount with canon lenses... I mostly shoot with the 50mm f1.2 L canon prime lens. superbly amazing. got it to weigh down to 7.4 kg... had one of the guys carry the battery and the drive.... later got long cables to help with that area. so.. if you do that... ull be runnin and gunnin.. really.. almost as light as the ex-3.

I have an ex-3... daylight stuff. red and ex-3 look a lot alike... but as soon as I light... especially indoors.. shades.. night photography... red's really a smoker. Red really looks like cinema quality... the ex-3... it feels fake right away.

an hour ago, I was showing a client some edited red sequences, he runs a production company that mostly does corporate docs... he was like... how does this camera do it!
I was like ex-1's you got are eng cameras.. not really for cinema content.

red can do really well in low light. at f3.5-f2.8 with my 50mm I got some sharp images, you can see em at http://www.bastaky.com/red/
lit the whole thing with just 2 arri 300's and no other lighting at all.. zilch.
 
I'd say this - All the talk about needing good crew and good light etc comes from that the RED camera behaves like a 35mm camera in many ways. You therefor feel it deserves the same treatment and resources as a pro 35 shoot.

My take on this is that the RED will, IMO, deliver better/or more interesting results than the EX1, even if your resources around the camera are the same. So why not shoot RED?

Only thing as I see it, is pulling focus, but if you can find a guy that's good you're sorted.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
FYI, it IS in fact VERY heavy. Make sure your camera op is in good shape and a trooper. Many are, but if he isn't he will cry and ruin your days.

You will need more light not because of the sensor being less sensitive, but only if you want to close down for deeper DoF. Red is MORE sensitive if anything once paired up with a good colorist.
Click to expand...

Depends on your frame of reference. If you are used to shooting 35mm handheld, like with a Panaflex, or worse, an F35/Genesis, the Red is more like handholding a Super-16 camera.

If your frame of reference is prosumer HDV cameras, then the Red would seem larger and heavier.

The Red One is not more sensitive than 500 ASA color negative film stock. People say things like "I shot with this small light or in this dark room" but without details like ASA rating, f-stop, and how noisy the shot finally turned out after color-correction, etc. it's hard to call that proof that the camera is sensitive in low-light. If you got the correct exposure at 320 ASA, 24 fps, 1/48th shutter, at f/2 for example... would you call that being sensitive in low-light? Or would you call that a typical sensitivity in low-light?
 
Steadicam might appear to make your life (the director) "easier" - but that's not the case.

Have you worked with a Steadicam op before? Using the rig requires set up and balancing time, balancing has to be checked and rebalanced from time to time, and an all day affair will kill your op...

I think - bottom line, if you can afford it, shoot RED.

If you can't afford it, wait until you can. If you have distribution in place, well, you won't be unhappy with the RED... Provided you hired/rented what you need to shoot a feature film with a professional camera. If you're shooting on RED, one would hope you're trying to be in league with more professional productions and understand the need for additional things/people and the like.

Focus Puller - you should have one period. The DP/op doesn't need to focus on focus... I'm not sure why this concept falls on deaf ears most of the time...
 
Shoot 4K. Definitely. Unless your overcranking. Looks way better.

The camera is very light sensitive, and if you want to keep your lighting needs minimum, you should shoot on superspeeds or really fast lenses. The RED lens in a 2.8. The extra stop in the superspeeds really helps.

THe camera gets heavy, but it's doable. You definitely need a crew of at least 3. Operator, First AC, Data Wrangler.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top